Is staging a DA trigger becoming a lost skill?

[NFrameFred]

Okay. Then perhaps someone could point out where the invite to tragedy is in the above method of staging?

I personally don't see where there is any, but a man's got to know his limitations, I guess (as Harry would say), just as I don't understand those either who would deny guns from everyone simply because they know they don't have the self control to be trusted around one.

 

[cmort666]

Okay. Then perhaps someone could point out where the invite to tragedy is in the above method of staging?

It probably has something to do with holding people at gunpoint.

I'm not a cop.
I've never been a cop.
I don't want to be a cop.
I don't want people to think I'm a cop.

That being the case, I don't "apprehend" people, nor do I want to try.

When I carry a gun, it's expressly to shoot people (and non-human animals) who put me in reasonable, justifiable, immediate fear of life and limb.

My gun's NOT coming out AT ALL unless I need to SHOOT somebody, not awe them, impress them or scare them.

Now, if as I draw in preparation for shooting somebody, they read the handwriting on the wall and run for their lives, I'm neither going to shoot them in the back, nor try to keep them there.

At that point, I call 911, give them a description of my wouldbe assailant, and where he was headed. He then becomes the responsibility of law enforcement. It's not an LEO's job to protect me as an individual, nor is it my job to capture criminals. It's my intention to maintain that division of responsibility whenever possible. Unnecessarily drawing and pointing guns at people doesn't work in furtherance of that.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

It probably has something to do with holding people at gunpoint.

Perhaps, but that doesn't make much sense to me as you described it. Holding someone at gunpoint would not include staging or continuous motion squeeze... else they would no longer need to be held but rather carried away.

 

[cmort666]

Perhaps, but that doesn't make much sense to me as you described it. Holding someone at gunpoint would not include staging or continuous motion squeeze... else they would no longer need to be held but rather carried away.

Hey, it doesn't make sense to me either, but maybe the idea is that you're going to draw down on somebody you don't actually need to shoot YET, staging the trigger as you hold them at gunpoint. That of course flies in the face of my ideas about trigger discipline, and apparently yours as well.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Okay. Then perhaps someone could point out where the invite to tragedy is in the above method of staging?

Nowhere. I think that that was cmort66's point, keith44spl's, and, in a CYA kind of way, mine.

 

[keith44spl]

Well I'll be Dog...

Somehow,
I thought we were talking about...When one needs to thread the needle so to speak, to make that deliberate double action shot.

One last mili-second flash of that front sight before releasing the shot...A shot that can't be called back whether it's good or bad.

Just making sure I'm doing my best...


Ain't staging a DA revolver kinda like doing a trigger set on semi-autos?

Now, for a little more fuel for thought...A failure to stop drill, (two CM & one per cranium proper)
I would try to stage the trigger on that third shot for sure.


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Dr.-d]

Sorry if my post was confusing it was in my wording. Simply put staging the trigger should only be used for target shooting and hunting you train not to use it in CCW.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Not confusing at all. As you shall soon see, using it as a result of CCW is exactly what most of us were discussing.

 

[Bat Guano]

A LEO (or CCW'er) doesn't necessarily shoot EVERYONE he holds at gunpoint. At least I didn't...

You could be either holding on where you propose to hit IF you decide to fire, or at low ready and ready to go from there if required.

The amount of ammo on hand is usually not an issue, nor is great accuracy. A saucer-sized group will do nicely, and as FAST as you can go. Staging is a neat trick, but it is only that--a trick.

There was some discussion of this years ago in "Secrets Of Double Action Shooting by Bob Nichols (1950).

Once upon a time most cops shot one-handed duelling stance with their off hands in their pockets, too.

 

[cmort666]

A LEO (or CCW'er) doesn't necessarily shoot EVERYONE he holds at gunpoint. At least I didn't...

I'm not a cop. I have no reason to draw UNLESS I'm going to shoot.

If you take off running, I won't shoot.
If you drop your firearm or other deadly weapon, I won't shoot.

After you've put me in credible and immediate fear of life and limb, any other course of action is probably going to get you shot. You've got SUCH a small window of opportunity to change course if you threaten me with deadly force, that you probably won't have a chance to do anything else before I shoot you.

Once you're a deadly threat to me, I won't make ANY attempt to change your mind about what you're doing. You've made your choice and I'm going to act on the premise that you're doing what you mean to do. At that point, shooting you is going to be a safer [to me] means of eliminating the threat than talk.

People who don't want to get shot, shouldn't go out of their way to convince innocent third parties that they NEED to be shot. Staging or not staging a double action trigger squeeze has no bearing on that at all.

 

[tom turner]

You only make that irrevocable draw and buttery-smooth double action shot in self defense when there's not other option . . . to be followed up if necessary with other double action shots.

At times like this, a staged trigger becomes a "last-chance" for the shooter to make sure the threat is not going to need to be shot again and . . .

1. One who has mastered (how to stage a trigger) has the real fast "luxury" of being able to "call off" that second shot if necessary WITHOUT losing critical time if the shot DOES need to be made!

2. A shooter who has NOT mastered staging a trigger instead would be simply cranking on through his second double action shot and thus shooting the BG a second time that might turn out NOT to be necessary.

We aren't trying to kill people in self defense, just stop the threat.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Ah
Bullseye,
Jest get yourself about 100M rounds for the first settin' jest to start with, a really good early post war K-22 like a 99%er and practice. Don't forget a good cleaning kit...

Can't take on any students as of right now...All the arm chairs are full up!
But, would like for all of us to get together for a little BBQ and friendly shootin' match.

You know if we could all meet up somewhere, where we could feast and shoot unimpeded...Ol' Jelly Bean and I could try out that 100 yard zero for CC revolvers DA. Ya know staged double action VS straight smooth DA pull through.

Talk about a hoot.
Well, got to close for now...Got a dozen or so PMs to answer.
Later. ~Big Old Smiley Thang Goes Here~

Su Amigo,
Dave

A most kind offer, sir, and I appreciate it. It's been a while since I've been in Texas, and I'm thinking a good long road trip would do wonders for my attitude, not to mention the above proposed fun.

I will be in touch. Thank you.

Bullseye

 

[2000Z-71]

So how do you stage a DA revolver trigger?

I've got a different technique from what cmort666 described. On a Smith & Wesson (forgive my limted experience with Colt and Ruger DA's) there are two distinct clicks that are heard and felt as the hammer travels rearward while the trigger is pulled. To stage the trigger, one pauses their trigger pull at the second click, confirms their sight picture and then continues to squeeze through the tiny little bit of trigger travel remaining until the hammer falls.

Start with dry firing to practice. Exaggerate the pause so that the hammer is held motionless for a few seconds before finally pulling through. After practicing and getting a feel for it progress to slow deliberate live fire practicing the technique. As you become more comfortable with it you can build speed and perform rapid fire while staging. It's how I was taught and practiced and it really has become second nature, executed without thinking about it.

Obviously with ear protection on, especially if one a firing line with others, you won't be able to hear the clicks. They do help with training in dry firing to develop a feel for the trigger. Some guns are easier than others. I have a 627 and one of my 686's I find especially easy to stage. My Centennial j-frames, not so much.

 

[keith44spl]

A most kind offer, sir, and I appreciate it. It's been a while since I've been in Texas, and I'm thinking a good long road trip would do wonders for my attitude, not to mention the above proposed fun.

I will be in touch. Thank you.

Bullseye

Bullseye,

I may be closer than you think...~Big Ol' Smiley~

We have a business interests & grandkids in the Bluegrass. I'm fixin' to retire and spend some time around them parts.

Now back to our regular programing...

The Colonel asked,
"Keith, were you staging that double action pull when you shot that bandit through the crack in the door?"

"Sir, I can't rightly say, cause I was a bearin' down and holdin' hard at that particular time!"

After much reflection...I think I also stage a single action trigger pull, now that I think about it.

Su Amigo,
Dave

I personally, had rather hear someone pick the Wildwood Flower that strum it...But that's just me.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Bullseye,

I may be closer than you think...~Big Ol' Smiley~

We have a business interests & grandkids in the Bluegrass. I'm fixin' to retire and spend some time around them parts.

Now back to our regular programing...

The Colonel asked,
"Keith, were you staging that double action pull when you shot that bandit through the crack in the door?"

"Sir, I can't rightly say, cause I was a bearin' down and holdin' hard at that particular time!"

After much reflection...I think I also stage a single action trigger pull, now that I think about it.

Su Amigo,
Dave

I personally, had rather hear someone pick the Wildwood Flower that strum it...But that's just me.

Dave,

We are in the heart of pickin' country here. Where I am, in Floyd County, Virginia, is on the "Crooked Road" (http://www.thecrookedroad.org/), which travels through 10 southwest Virginia counties and helps keep the heritage of this wonderful music alive. Every Friday night here in Floyd we have the "Bluegrass Jamboree" at the Country Store, replete with plenty of mighty fine pickers, flat-footin', and some of the finest folks you'll ever meet. It would be my pleasure to have you here as my guest.



Bullseye

 

[galena]

OK, I tried to stay out of this discussion but have a couple of thoughts anyhow. 1. When I attended the state POST LE Firearms Instructor's course several years ago I found they don't even teach revolvers anymore. Many new shooters/cops have never been exposed to what a revolver can do. 2. Concerning the comment that "you won't ever use this in a rapid fire event" I have won my share of bowling pin shoots staging a DA trigger pull. 3. I wonder how many of those who condemn the practice think that staging a semi-auto trigger is 'the thing to do'? OK, I'm done now!

 

[Jellybean]

I've got a different technique from what cmort666 described. On a Smith & Wesson (forgive my limted experience with Colt and Ruger DA's) there are two distinct clicks that are heard and felt as the hammer travels rearward while the trigger is pulled. To stage the trigger, one pauses their trigger pull at the second click, confirms their sight picture and then continues to squeeze through the tiny little bit of trigger travel remaining until the hammer falls.

Start with dry firing to practice. Exaggerate the pause so that the hammer is held motionless for a few seconds before finally pulling through. After practicing and getting a feel for it progress to slow deliberate live fire practicing the technique. As you become more comfortable with it you can build speed and perform rapid fire while staging. It's how I was taught and practiced and it really has become second nature, executed without thinking about it.

Obviously with ear protection on, especially if one a firing line with others, you won't be able to hear the clicks. They do help with training in dry firing to develop a feel for the trigger. Some guns are easier than others. I have a 627 and one of my 686's I find especially easy to stage. My Centennial j-frames, not so much.

This is the way I shot S&Ws too. On the line, or if too noisy, I'd do it by feeling for the second click. With other revolvers, or pistols with long trigger pulls, I'd learn how the trigger felt pulling straight through, then would stop short of a full squeeze and stage it by feel.

 

[washburn832]

LASD Taught it

I was a deputy sheriff with the LASD in 1990 and trigger staging was what they taught. Even though I carry an autoloader for duty now I still carry either a SW M60 or a M66 off duty. The revolvers are my favorite firearm because I shoot them so accurately and a big part of that is the staging technique.

The way I was taught, you place your trigger finger through the trigger up to the first crease. As you align the sights you quickly "scrunch" up the excess travel and rotate the cylinder until it locks up. At about this point the tip of your trigger finger can feel the frame. This all takes just a fraction of a second. Now I'm on the sights in earnest and a slight squeeze sends the round off.

I'm always amazed at how accurate a revolver can be when doing this, even with a little J frame. Now that I've been doing it for twenty years its pretty much all I know. I can shoot a better qualification score with my revolver than my Sig P226 as long as I don't have to do strings of more than six rounds. If I had to go back to a revolver today with just a couple of Safariland Comp 1 speed loaders I'd be fine with it.

 

[cubfarm1]

Ok---- are you all trying to say that I should be able to fully cock as in single action style with only the trigger??? Am sitting here with my 629-4 and just cannot find that spot. There are two clicks then the hammer drops. I

 

[cubfarm1]

I have never liked the double action trigger on this gun but the single action pull is very light and smooth. I get too much barrel lift as a double action so don't shoot it much this way.