I had a .380 Hydra Shok in my training props that expanded like it should. A Reserve Police Officer was doing something he should not have been doing and shot himself in the thigh with his Walther PPK. Fortunate for him the bullet did not strike the Femoral artery. I can't find the projectile. If it turns up I will take and post a pic.
Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?
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I had a .380 Hydra Shok in my training props that expanded like it should. A Reserve Police Officer was doing something he should not have been doing and shot himself in the thigh with his Walther PPK. Fortunate for him the bullet did not strike the Femoral artery. I can't find the projectile. If it turns up I will take and post a pic.
I feel like every time I read a .380 argument, the bigger counter-point is that it wont stop the 300 lb man hopped up on PCP.
For me, the reality is that my concealed 380 is for the unexpected situation. It's for the situation that a guy that decides to rob a convenience store when I happened to want to buy a pint of ice cream. And I feel confident that if that situation were to happen it doesn't matter if I'm sending a 22 short or a .500 at the perpetrator, he will be running(because he didn't expect his life to be in jeopardy when he decided hold up the convenience store). If I knew a guy was out to kill me, and would be breaking in to my home to do it, it would be a different situation, but I'm pretty sure I don't have any enemies like that.
More stopping power is great if there is a specific someone that needs to be STOPPED. But for the majority of situations, the mere sight of a gun is going to be enough to tell a perpetrator that the situation is not what they planned for, and they want want to alive anywhere but here.
For me, the reality is that my concealed 380 is for the unexpected situation. It's for the situation that a guy that decides to rob a convenience store when I happened to want to buy a pint of ice cream. And I feel confident that if that situation were to happen it doesn't matter if I'm sending a 22 short or a .500 at the perpetrator, he will be running(because he didn't expect his life to be in jeopardy when he decided hold up the convenience store). If I knew a guy was out to kill me, and would be breaking in to my home to do it, it would be a different situation, but I'm pretty sure I don't have any enemies like that.
More stopping power is great if there is a specific someone that needs to be STOPPED. But for the majority of situations, the mere sight of a gun is going to be enough to tell a perpetrator that the situation is not what they planned for, and they want want to alive anywhere but here.
indigo22
Member
When I was in my 20's I was much thinner and stronger, a 1911 in 45acp was my choice to carry. I'm nearing 60 now and I'd rather not have my pants sagging and or bulging. My wife never minded me having my gun along for the ride as long as she could not see it. She used to complain when I wore my fixed blade knife to the store with her because it stood out on my belt.
My LCP go's un-noticed... in fact she asked me two months after I bought it when I was going to start packing that new gun I bought. I had been carrying it since the day after I brought it home. She has rarely said a word since then about it. Now that is effective.
If I have my pants on, it is with me. I practice with it regularly, strong handed and weak.
My LCP go's un-noticed... in fact she asked me two months after I bought it when I was going to start packing that new gun I bought. I had been carrying it since the day after I brought it home. She has rarely said a word since then about it. Now that is effective.
If I have my pants on, it is with me. I practice with it regularly, strong handed and weak.
The importance of awareness - twice
In 1977 I went whitetail deer hunting for the first time with a handgun. My choice for 50 yards and under was a Ruger Blackhawk Bicentennial model 357 Magnum with 6.5-inch barrel. Ammunition was Remington 158-grain JHP 357 Magnum. To make a long story less long . . . A whitetail buck meandered while grazing. Completely unaware of me, I sat up and fired at three yards. Point of impact was right side cervical vertabrae about four inches below the skull. Whitetail dropped like a stone - then got up! My second shot, again, at about three yards missed everything. I was astonished that the animal got up with no apparent ill effects. Third shot was a thoracic lung shot about two inches rear of its right scapula. Animal dropped and struggled to get up. Final shot was a brain shot.
During butchery I found the neck bullet and the one in lungs. Neck shot cracked two vertabrae without penetrating either. Bullet was literally flattened to a nearly perfect squashed mushroom one inch in diameter. Bullet was intact otherwise. Penetration was about two inches.
Lung shot was also flattened penetrating rib cage into the right lung less than three inches and losing apparently little weight.
Live weight of this animal was not more than 150 pounds.
***
A friend who was a uniformed LEO was shot high in his right thigh during an arrest. He chased the shooter down three floors worth of fire escape, then about 40 yards until his takedown. After the shooter was taken away, Bob noticed he had been shot. He immediately collapsed. I treated the wound a couple of times. It appeared to be from some sort of 38. Tissue damage was limited to muscle; recovery was complete. At the time Bob was 70 inches in height, weighing 220 pounds. He was built like a refrigerator.
***
From these two incidents what appears to be significant is that the whitetail did not understand it had been shot. And not understanding, it reacted as it would to any pain. The LEO, who was unaware he had been shot, reacted as did the whitetail (as best it could) - that is, he did what he intended to do. He collapsed only after realizing he had been shot.
The Remington cup-and-core 158-grain JHP proved to be an unsatisfactory penetrator at very close to its nominal muzzle velocity. Shooting two-to-three inch barreled 357s using lighter bullets would make me uneasy - despite gelatin tests and milk jug tests and pine board tests, et al. I'm beginning to lean toward 357 Magnum 158-grain JSPs. Lower than nominal muzzle velocity coupled with a bullet that expands more slowly than the JHP version. Compared with danger from myriad missed shots, bullets over-penetrating seems a minor issue.
When I consider carrying a 380 ACP as a primary EDC - even just for a trip to the store . . .
In 1977 I went whitetail deer hunting for the first time with a handgun. My choice for 50 yards and under was a Ruger Blackhawk Bicentennial model 357 Magnum with 6.5-inch barrel. Ammunition was Remington 158-grain JHP 357 Magnum. To make a long story less long . . . A whitetail buck meandered while grazing. Completely unaware of me, I sat up and fired at three yards. Point of impact was right side cervical vertabrae about four inches below the skull. Whitetail dropped like a stone - then got up! My second shot, again, at about three yards missed everything. I was astonished that the animal got up with no apparent ill effects. Third shot was a thoracic lung shot about two inches rear of its right scapula. Animal dropped and struggled to get up. Final shot was a brain shot.
During butchery I found the neck bullet and the one in lungs. Neck shot cracked two vertabrae without penetrating either. Bullet was literally flattened to a nearly perfect squashed mushroom one inch in diameter. Bullet was intact otherwise. Penetration was about two inches.
Lung shot was also flattened penetrating rib cage into the right lung less than three inches and losing apparently little weight.
Live weight of this animal was not more than 150 pounds.
***
A friend who was a uniformed LEO was shot high in his right thigh during an arrest. He chased the shooter down three floors worth of fire escape, then about 40 yards until his takedown. After the shooter was taken away, Bob noticed he had been shot. He immediately collapsed. I treated the wound a couple of times. It appeared to be from some sort of 38. Tissue damage was limited to muscle; recovery was complete. At the time Bob was 70 inches in height, weighing 220 pounds. He was built like a refrigerator.
***
From these two incidents what appears to be significant is that the whitetail did not understand it had been shot. And not understanding, it reacted as it would to any pain. The LEO, who was unaware he had been shot, reacted as did the whitetail (as best it could) - that is, he did what he intended to do. He collapsed only after realizing he had been shot.
The Remington cup-and-core 158-grain JHP proved to be an unsatisfactory penetrator at very close to its nominal muzzle velocity. Shooting two-to-three inch barreled 357s using lighter bullets would make me uneasy - despite gelatin tests and milk jug tests and pine board tests, et al. I'm beginning to lean toward 357 Magnum 158-grain JSPs. Lower than nominal muzzle velocity coupled with a bullet that expands more slowly than the JHP version. Compared with danger from myriad missed shots, bullets over-penetrating seems a minor issue.
When I consider carrying a 380 ACP as a primary EDC - even just for a trip to the store . . .
kthom
Member
Folks want the bullet that expands the most, but most do not recognize that adequate penetration is paramount and top priority! Without that, nothing works well! Yes, over penetration can and does happen, but in my experience not nearly as often as inadequate pentration. There is a lot to be said for a flat nosed semi wadcutter shaped bullet.
Of course, nothing works well unless the bullet strikes a primary target, and even when it does, it can take 15 or more seconds before the target realizes that it's dead! The target can shoot off lots of rounds in 15 seconds!! There is just flat no telling what will happen when a target is stuck by a bullet. That's why it is my fervent intention that there will be bullets to follow hard on the heels of my first shot. Bullets that strike a body less than an inch apart can have very different results, depending on what each of them must negotiate along the way through. And, yes, I want them to hit where I intend for them to hit for the best possible outcome.
But I want every cartridge loaded into my gun to go bang in its turn, and feed when it is supposed to feed and eject when it is supposed to eject if the gun is a semi auto. In other words, I intend to carry a gun that works!! Then I want the bullet to go deep into the target, regardless of what ever it may strike along the way to where those vital parts are found. And frankly, I do not care if that bullet eventually exits on the other side. I care very much if the bullet does not strike my target at all!!! Those are the dangerous ones that bring the most liability! Not that a through and through cannot cause serious damage, but generally nothing at all like a bullet that has not passed through something before it strikes. All shootings are in a sense **** shoots! All we can do is the best we can do as long as we can do it and hope for the best. We must have good equipment, good training won't hurt a thing, and a quality bullet is a plus. But any bullet from any gun that penetrates sufficiently and strikes something important for continued bodily function will eventually do it's job. Sometimes instantly, and sometimes after the fact. There are NO guarantees! There are too many variables involved. But we can still tilt the odds in our favor. That's another story, but I believe what I have stated above is a fairly correct assessment of the situation. At least, it is for me personally. You take it for what it might be worth.
Of course, nothing works well unless the bullet strikes a primary target, and even when it does, it can take 15 or more seconds before the target realizes that it's dead! The target can shoot off lots of rounds in 15 seconds!! There is just flat no telling what will happen when a target is stuck by a bullet. That's why it is my fervent intention that there will be bullets to follow hard on the heels of my first shot. Bullets that strike a body less than an inch apart can have very different results, depending on what each of them must negotiate along the way through. And, yes, I want them to hit where I intend for them to hit for the best possible outcome.
But I want every cartridge loaded into my gun to go bang in its turn, and feed when it is supposed to feed and eject when it is supposed to eject if the gun is a semi auto. In other words, I intend to carry a gun that works!! Then I want the bullet to go deep into the target, regardless of what ever it may strike along the way to where those vital parts are found. And frankly, I do not care if that bullet eventually exits on the other side. I care very much if the bullet does not strike my target at all!!! Those are the dangerous ones that bring the most liability! Not that a through and through cannot cause serious damage, but generally nothing at all like a bullet that has not passed through something before it strikes. All shootings are in a sense **** shoots! All we can do is the best we can do as long as we can do it and hope for the best. We must have good equipment, good training won't hurt a thing, and a quality bullet is a plus. But any bullet from any gun that penetrates sufficiently and strikes something important for continued bodily function will eventually do it's job. Sometimes instantly, and sometimes after the fact. There are NO guarantees! There are too many variables involved. But we can still tilt the odds in our favor. That's another story, but I believe what I have stated above is a fairly correct assessment of the situation. At least, it is for me personally. You take it for what it might be worth.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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I've got a few more that I could add to the pile, but this picture well illustrates my journey to the .380.
There are numerous .380 self defense rounds that are more than adequate. When I carry my .380 I use the Corbon Pow'RBall round which is a really nasty round. Most of the time I have my Shield with me but I do have a Bodyguard and Sig P238 that I sometimes carry. Any gun is better than none at all. I've seen a number of studies that concluded that the differences between round effectiveness isn't all that great and of course it depends upon placement more than anything else. For home self defense, I wouldn't use by Colt 45 or my S&W .357s, I would just grab my AR15 and be done with it. Regards, Elliot45
Blackshirt
Member
The key to self defense with a mousegun is to avoid intermediate barriers or heavy clothing when you target an adversary. In other words, aim for the face or throat. In my old job we referred to .22s, 32s, and .380s as "eye guns." I use a sheet of 8.5"X11" paper as a target and practice no further than 5 yards away. I also use the largest available FMJ bullet and carry a spare magazine hidden in a small pocketknife pouch. This is a good option for when you're alone and need to break contact...
Thomasino
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lol, do you have neighbors next to you? I think I would only pull my AR out of the safe for home defense that required mob control.AR's sure are the difference-makers!, but for most use I would be too worried about hitting innocents next door. Generally I just take my carry gun out of my pocket when I get home and set it on the table next to me for home protection, it's sort of goes wherever I go in the house. It's a 38 + p LCR.
I've got a few more that I could add to the pile, but this picture well illustrates my journey to the .380.
WOW...with all those in your pockets, where do you keep your keys and spare change.....
AR15? I wouldn't rely on that mouse gun for home defense. Don't you know you need at least a 308 or 30-06. A 458 Winchester Magnum would be my personal pick
hostler
Member
Actually a little 55gr bullet (even one traveling at twice the speed of a handgun bullet) doesn't have the mass to penetrate walls, doors and windows like you would think. A 5.56 will penetrate just about the same as a 9mm through drywall.
The biggest issue with an AR for home defense is how bulky it is. Yes, compared to a rifle the AR carbine platform is light and short, but is it short enough to use while struggling with someone or at "bad breath" distances?
A pistol can effectively be used from distances of 0' out to 50' (that pretty much covers any possible use inside most houses unless you have an indoor bowling alley), while a long gun can not really be considered useful any closer than 3'. For me, the 3' around me is very critical space that needs defending more than any other space in the house.
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Ziggy2525
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I've been a supporter of carrying a .380. Here an article from last week were a ruger lcp didn't do a great job of convincing the BG he had a better place to be.
Son details saving mother in Sidney home invasion - Portland Press Herald
I found another article that said the BG was in intensive care, so shot placement was probably good.
Son details saving mother in Sidney home invasion - Portland Press Herald
I found another article that said the BG was in intensive care, so shot placement was probably good.
Protected One
Member
I'm a supported of carrying a .380 as well. In fact, the only time I would feel uncomfortable carrying one is when I have to go into an area of the city that is know to have dogs roaming the streets. I take a glock 23 at those times.
keith44spl
Member
Well lets see here.....I've used the 9mm Luger in ball, HP, +P, +P+ and
the .357 Sig, Super 38 and the .380, also known as the 9mm Kutz, er short.
My very last pick would be the 9mm Short. Although I own several 380s
I mainly use them for training women & children in the operation of semi-autos pistols.
I do not and would not, depend solely on one to bring my hide back to the ranch.
With all the small/compact pistols out there, there is no point in 'Not Using Enough Gun' .
.
the .357 Sig, Super 38 and the .380, also known as the 9mm Kutz, er short.
My very last pick would be the 9mm Short. Although I own several 380s
I mainly use them for training women & children in the operation of semi-autos pistols.
I do not and would not, depend solely on one to bring my hide back to the ranch.
With all the small/compact pistols out there, there is no point in 'Not Using Enough Gun' .
.
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When a small .380acp pistol is the only choice due to dress mode:
** practice facial and crotch (sic?) shots.
** practice facial and crotch (sic?) shots.
It appears only one shot was fired and that it at the very least "took the fight out of him". I think the most important lesson to be learned from this incident is the importance of integrated close-quarter defense skills.
Sidney Home Invasion Leaves Two Hospitalized | WABI TV5
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Florida J Frame
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Florida J Frame
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Whitwabit
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guess when all cops carried were 38's they didn't kill anyone !!
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