Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?

[oldiesradio1560]

This may be a personal choice thing to many people but I'd like to look at this purely from stopping power. Aside from accuracy placement, is the .380 a good carry round? Balistic wise I am looking at 900-1,000 fps but only around 250-275 fpe. The way I see it is if you can't stop a 6'3" 300 lb. bad guy hiped up on drugs without trying to put 6-7 rounds in him isn't a round then ineffective in those first critical seconds?

 

[petepeterson]

It sounds as if you've decided already.

By your standards, I would say most handgun rounds are ineffective.

I personally would prefer not to have that energy dumped in me once, let alone a few times.

I think the .380 is an effective round, but slowly becoming obsolete due to the size of the current 9mm models.

 

[haywood]

I've herd good and bad about all calibers. I picked 38 special +P. I can handle it and the load I carry works for The NYPD. Now, I hope I never have to find out just how good it is. You just have to reserch if your load and caliber works on the street. Then you have to practice because shot placement is usually # 1.

 

[texmex]

Load selection is more critical in lower powered cartridges. Some .380 loads expand well but do not get enough penetration. FMJ gets plenty of penetration but doesn't make a very big wound cavity. Some .380 loads (such as Hornady Critical Defense) expand to make a larger wound while still giving adequate penetration. Some of the older models of pocket autos were designed around FMJ ammo and are not reliable with some non FMJ ammo. So if you can find a .380 load that works in your gun and gives adequate penetration while making a decent wound cavity, go for it. Most of the .380 pistols I have owned or shot were very easy to shoot well. Low noise, low recoil. If you have a load that has adequate penetration and the pistol shoots well, shot placement should be a big plus. There are several .380 pistols out there that are well made and almost as small as older .25 Auto designs. I have always enjoyed shooting 32 Autos but .380 shoots a heavier bullet faster. A .380 you have with you is certainly better than a 44 Magnum left at home or in the glove box.

 

[Captain TMD]

I can tell you that in 28 years of active, full time Law Enforcement duty, I have seen numerous persons shot dead with a .380 cal handgun. I have a S&W BG 380 loaded with Hornady Critical Defense, 90gr. FTX that I carry occasionally. I prefer to carry a .40 cal but I don't feel unprotected with the .380

 

[growr]

To quote a world class trainer Ken Hackathorn, "Friends don't let friends carry .380's"
I have a .380 but my real carry gun is a 3913 or my m36 in my front pocket.
.380 ammo is less popular in stores, costs more and is less powerful than a 9mm. Gun size in 9mm carry guns is now about the same as many .380's as mentioned above.
Randy

 

[Mule Packer]

I can echo what texmex and Captain TMD have said. While I'll often carry a .357 or a .45, when the situation dictates and I can't carry something larger, I certainly don't feel helpless or uncomfortable packing my Ruger LCP in .380 loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

Not to disagree with Ken Hackathorn, but I'd certainly prefer to have my friend carry a .380 than to carry nothing.

Sure there are others that are more powerful, but to put it simply...I sure as heck wouldn't want to get shot with one.

 

[jeeps]

All handguns are ineffective without good placement in vitals. A good European 380 ball fmj will reach the vitals! Placement is queen. Any of the small caliber from 380 down are more effective with ball ammo.

 

[oldiesradio1560]

My post comes from a discussion I have with a friend who just got his carry permit. He wants a Walther PPK .380 to carry. I have a M640-3 .357 mag. I carry Hormany Critical Defense. I look at 600+fpe @ 1000+fps a better manstopper than .380. The purpose is to Stop the threat isn't it?

 

[petepeterson]

My post comes from a discussion I have with a friend who just got his carry permit. He wants a Walther PPK .380 to carry. I have a M640-3 .357 mag. I carry Hormany Critical Defense. I look at 600+fpe @ 1000+fps a better manstopper than .380. The purpose is to Stop the threat isn't it?

Yes- one round of each, in exactly the same place, your .357 is probably the better stopper.

Your friend's pistol is:

1. More comfortable to shoot
2. Possibly more accurate
3. Holds more rounds
4. Might be more concealable due to the width

Different strokes for different folks. I personally wouldn't choose a PPK because there are lighter, more concealable choices in 9mm. That doesn't mean he's wrong, or that his choice won't work for him.

 

[vortex360]

My post comes from a discussion I have with a friend who just got his carry permit. He wants a Walther PPK .380 to carry. I have a M640-3 .357 mag. I carry Hormany Critical Defense. I look at 600+fpe @ 1000+fps a better manstopper than .380. The purpose is to Stop the threat isn't it?

The element of surprise is critical. Springing a 380 micro with hollow points on the suspect is very effective.

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

There was a post on here some time back by a former LE who had attended a lot of investigations into many shootings. He said something that I have passed on many times here on the range. He said he had NEVER seen a .380 JHP that was successful and had never seen a .380 FMJ fail.

 

[haywood]

I can tell you that in 28 years of active, full time Law Enforcement duty, I have seen numerous persons shot dead with a .380 cal handgun. I have a S&W BG 380 loaded with Hornady Critical Defense, 90gr. FTX that I carry occasionally. I prefer to carry a .40 cal but I don't feel unprotected with the .380

Ah, some one who has seen it. That's exsperiance you can count on. Better than jello and water tests.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Real world does hold a lot of sway, I agree.

I have a number of mouse guns, from .22 Short through .380. That includes .22s/LR and WRM and .25s and a .32 to be clear on the subject. Any and all of them are candidates for carry depending on clothing and circumstances. My main carry, as I just wrote in another thread, is .38 Special, sometimes 9mm, but I have carried everything else as the spirit moves me and circumstances dictate.

Any gun beats no gun. Repeat that mantra anytime you are confused on the subject.

Correction - the .22 Short is NEVER carried. It has been but never again.

 

[Captain TMD]

There was a post on here some time back by a former LE who had attended a lot of investigations into many shootings. He said something that I have passed on many times here on the range. He said he had NEVER seen a .380 JHP that was successful and had never seen a .380 FMJ fail.

__________________
During several years of my Law Enforcement Career, I was a Violent Crimes Detective and part of our investigation was attending the autopsy of the victim at the State Medical Investigators Office. I have personally seen the devastation a .380 cal. HP round can do to a persons vital organs. Believe me when I say that a .380 cal HP round can get the job done with proper shot placement.

I am not saying the the former LE that you are talking about is mistaken in his personal observations regarding a .380 JHP not being successful. All I am saying is that I have seen them work several times and the person on the autopsy table was proof.

 

[BAM-BAM]

IMHO a number of posts have touched on the underlying issue......... gun size...... "SIZE Matters"

Prior to WWII most civilian concealed carry autos were tiny .25 Colts or .32 and .380s..... if you wanted a .38Super or .45 it was a 5" Colt 1911 in 9mm it was a Browning HP ...maybe a Luger if you were a 'bad" guy in a B-Movie........




When I started carrying a gun in 1978........ the most common 9mm and .45 autos in the US were were still the 1911s, Browning HP and WWII bring backs.... such as Lugers and P-38s....... about the only thing new was the Smith model 39.

Small concealed carry guns remained mostly of blow back design..... Colt's in .380 and .32, some Beretta's and of course "the most famous of all" the Walther PP series....... including Mr Bonds PPK.

Keep in mind that the ".380 aka 9mm Kurtz aka 9x17" is about the most powerful cartridge that can be chamber in a blow back design. (OK today there are the Russian 9x18 and the Hi-Point 9mm but not in 1978 in the US)

The smallest/lightest weight,commonly available, guns were the alloy frame 4.25 inch .45 Colt Commanders...... the smallest 9mm I can remember was the Smith Model 39.

Europe was seeing the development of new 9mm Police guns to replace their .32s and .380s ...... which gave us the P5,P6 and P7... all semi-compact...... but still not really small. (Well maybe the P7 but IIRC it was about the most expensive auto going)




The 1980s saw technological advances... and new trends. Several custom gunsmiths were "cutting down" 9mm and .45s..... giving us the ASP and Devel, along with chopped 1911s, Browning HPs and Smith .59s.

The expression "friends don't let friends carry mouse guns" was coined.....

The gun company's picked up on the trend with the Smith 469........ and by 1990 we has the Colt Officer's and CCO models..... Smith 3913s and 6906s.

The race to smaller and smaller guns in 9mm, .40 and .45 was underway in a big way.....



I carried a Walther PPK as my primary concealed carry handgun from about 1985 to 1990 when I got a early Smith 3913 9mm....... Did I feel under gunned with the .380 PPK.....maybe ...... but it was sure smaller and lighter than my Colt Commander or 3" .357 Model 65 at home.

 

[Old cop]

Take it from someone who has been there, stopping power is a myth. Best I can offer is to carry the largest caliber you can handle and practice, practice, practice. Personally I carry a J frame loaded w/+P .38 Speer Gold Dot. When deep concealment is needed I'll carry the LCP loaded w/HPR hollow point 90 grain. UPDATE: I just read a lengthly article written by a cop who had worked a lot of homicides where the .380 was used. His take is the FMJ is a better option b/c it reaches the vital organs where the HP usually stops short. Some say they use a mix in their mags but I'd check reliability carefully before doing this. Some guns choke when HP & FMJ are fed through the same magazine. My LCP is loaded w/HPR 90 grain hollow points b/c they meet the FBI tests for penetration.

 

[ContinentalOp]

A .380 would not be my first choice as a carry gun, but I would certainly love to have the option of a small gun, like the LCP, for times when even my 642 may not be discreet enough.

Effectiveness is relative. A .380 is going to be more effective than a charming smile if you can't carry anything bigger. Assuming I was able to shoot it well, I would be ok carrying a .380 loaded with 90gr XTP, which seems to be the top performer and most recommended JHP load I've seen. Personally, I see the value of a .380 being a carry gun for times when you can't carry something bigger.

 

[Watchdog]

Is the .380 cartridge underpowered?

Compared to a .22 Short? No.

Compared to any larger caliber? Yes.

Case closed.

 

[Rangeline9]

... "with a delivery of a brick through a plate glass window". What movie was that from ? Dr. No, when he gets his Beretta taken away.

I learned, over the years, PPK, PPKS, and clones are unforgiving when held improperly as they bite ... HARD ! Also, will not tolerate limp-wristing.

I much prefer a compact 9mm or .357 Sig.

I'd take a S&W Model 39 any day of the week but that's probably just my background.