Is the .380 enough?

[Erich]

Here are 141 posts that might be of interest - lots of other threads like this here:


.380 load (Calling Erich)

 

[Rustyt1953]

In the over 5 years that I have carried my LCP, it has never seen a hollow point.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Most of the 80s I carried a .380 PPK not many/any? small 9mms back then and it was for defense not offense ..... once the 3913 came along it got retired except for Tux and Bond movie nights.

 

[lrrifleman]

I think that Joe Petroni (George Kennedy in the original "Airport" ) said it best, "the old 707 just doesn't know how to read, so she doesn't know what she can't do." That same logic applies here, in the hands of a competent user, the 380 just won't know what it can't do.

I am awaiting my purchase permit in order to pick up my Mauser HSc in 380. I am not fond of the heel magazine release, but it has many redeeming virtues. While I would prefer to carry a 1911 or my 686+ 3", I believe that there may be instances where a larger or thicker handgun will print more than I desire, hence the HSc.

Being disabled, I don't plan on looking for trouble, but if it finds me, most likely it will be at bad breath range. At bad breath range I won't be assuming a Camp Perry stance, but point shooting from the hip, so it will be center of mass. I don't expect the opportunity for a head shot. For carry ammo, I would prefer either the Lehigh Defense protection round or Hornady Critical Defense if they function reliably, otherwise it will be ball ammo.

Will I be undergunned? Maybe. But I will plant my shots. In my mind, having a sidearm in hand is better than nothing at all.

 

[JayFramer]

I carry a 380 and the way I see is is the bullet is powerful enough to penetrate one side of the skull
but not the other so the bullet ricochets around inside the skull scrambling the brain.

Good enough for me.

A .22 will do the same thing.

At least on the internet.

 

[kthom]

I've got a kinda funny idea about that. Six 40 grain rounds of .22LR = 240 grains of lead. Same amount as one round of calibers beginning with a 4. Difference is, six rounds in slightly different locations have a bit more chance to strike something serious inside, whereas the one round beginning with 40 might not hit something serious, even though it came very close to doing so. No comparison between six rounds of the large caliber, of course, but a lot of folks can't fire more than a couple of large caliber rounds in the same time a practiced person can fire several of the small calibers. I see folks shooting the medium power rounds mostly with their eyes closed when they jerk the trigger. AT CLOSE RANGE, several rounds of .22LR get close to equalling as much lead as a 00 Buck shotgun round. Nowhere near the same stomping power, of course.
The question is, if (IF, and I tend to think it might be that) the six rounds of .22LR will get the job done, and it's all you can shoot comfortably, quickly, and accurately, do you really need anything more than to get the job done. Yes, the larger more powerful rounds are not as marginal, but dead or incapacitated is dead or incapacitated, and more dead or incapacitated really is more than is necessary.

I'm not recommending anything here, just sayin' that I have known a lot of folks who don't have the strength any more to handle the larger powered rounds to gain that extra margin of safety. If you can, go for it. But if you can't anymore, or never could for whatever reason, then use what you can handle effectively and don't look back. Any of them beat having nothing at all to make a difference. And I'm no believer in one shot stops. Yeah, they happen, but they are never guaranteed. Sometimes just having a handgun makes a BIG difference, and probably a larger percentage of successful self protection events have occured while using a smaller less powerful round than any of us might think.

I salute those who may be carrying the so called mouse guns because they can still use them as opposed to a bigger, heavier, perhaps more desirable something that they just cannot efffectively use. I will always remember a grey haired little old lady who was at an indoor range and shooting her small caliber handgun from her wheel chair and was just flat wearing out her target out at 7 yards. Kudos to the range for making accomodation for her. Kudos to her for being willing not only to have a gun, but to regularly go to the range and maintain her familiarity and effectiveness with that gun. And all of us who got the opportunity to be around when this happened were treated to a very positive and determined lady who still could and did take responsibility for her personal safety. I sure don't want her shootin' at me! Her lesson is this: Anybody who buys a handgun and shoots it once or twice and parks it in a drawer is no more protected than folks who don't have a gun. And being able to shoot competently is a skill that diminishes over time of not shooting. That old gal was having a ball, and she was an inspiration for me, mouse gun and all!

 

[Old cop]

I have two grown daughters who don't like to shoot but can handle a twenty-two. I gave each of them a .22 revolver to keep handy just in case, and we practice as often as possible.

 

[Echo40]

The .380 ACP cartridge got a bad rep in the United States because at one point in time the cartridge was downloaded domestically in consideration of all the cheapo pot metal semiautomatic pistols on the market at the time. Thankfully, that is no longer the case due to the fact that all the .380 pistols on the market today are of much higher quality, and tend to be built on the inherently stronger tilting barrel/locking breach action as opposed to the more common straight blowback operated pistols of the past.

My EDC is a Smith & Wesson manufactured Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP loaded with Hornady American Gunner XTPs. Being a robust all steel pistol that's built like a tank, I could safely load it up with Buffalo Bore's so-called .380 ACP +P loads which are cranked up to deliver energy levels on par with .38 Special +P or 9x18 Makarov, but I don't see the point when standard pressure loads like the ones I carry already meet FBI specifications with a minimum of 12" of penetration with full expansion in Balistics Gel with 5 layers of heavy denim. (Which for those who don't know, is intended to simulate an absolute worst case scenario in which an assailant is behind cover/seated in an automobile, wearing absurdly heavy clothing, using a shooting stance in which their forearms are in front of their torso.)

.380 ACP is most certainly adequate for self-defense with modern defensive ammunition.

 

[dsk]

With the pocket 9s that are available, I don't see a reason to carry a 380 unless you're recoil sensitive.

There isn't a pocket 9 made that's as small or light as my Kahr P380. Some are pretty close, but my pocket can sure tell especially when it bulges out or droops noticeably with anything larger than the Kahr inside.

 

[JayFramer]

There isn't a pocket 9 made that's as small or light as my Kahr P380. Some are pretty close, but my pocket can sure tell especially when it bulges out or droops noticeably with anything larger than the Kahr inside.

Exactly. NO WAY that ANY pocket 9mm is nearly as small and light as a Kel-Tec P32 or Ruger LCP. People that repeat this drivel are kidding themselves. Short of the expensive and fragile Rohrbaughs all "pocket" 9mms I ever seen are significantly larger and heavier than pocket .380s.

 

[Kanewpadle]

The real question is, what are you willing to sacrifice to carry a mouse gun?

If the most important thing for you is size and weight, more power to you.

A Glock 43 isn't that big. Neither is the new Sig P365.

Tried the small 380 guns. It's like putting a V8 in a go cart.

No thanks.

 

[labworm]

In the over 5 years that I have carried my LCP, it has never seen a hollow point.

I'm in the same boat as you.

 

[Echo40]

I'll never understand why folks carry FMJ over JHP.

Seriously, modern bullet designs such as the Hornady XTP are capable of penetrating 12" with full expansion in Balistics Gel with 5 layers of heavy denim.

Using FMJ is a liability due to the fact that even in .380 ACP they're going to overpenetrate and thus will most likely cause some form of collateral damage.

 

[TomkinsSP]

^^^Been there seen it. .380 ball is NOT going to cause significant collateral damage after passing through a body. Nearly all of the projectiles energy will have been spent.

Missing the target, on the other hand, causes significant collateral damage. This is often inaccurately categorized as pass throughs to avoid liability in an environment where officers ARE NOT TAUGHT TO AIM.

PS, not saying ball is better than HP, just that pass throughs are not such a liability.

 

[OLDSTER]

I carry a Bodyguard stoked with Hornady American Gunner ammo with the 90 gr. XTP bullet. Lethal and totally reliable. In a Desantis Nemesis holster, I feel very well armed and comfortable with this tiny carry.

 

[smoothshooter]

I recently read a study of 1700 gun fatalities that examined the different caliber firearms effectiveness. The 380 held its own against its bigger brothers, far better than its little brothers, with being fatal in nearly (IIRC) 14% of the time. That said, I wouldn't want to be shot with a 380, but I'll stick with one of my big brothers for my PD.

Whether or not a caliber is more fatal than others is not the point.
What matters is whether one or more shots stopped the attack
in a timely manner.
It matters not if the attacker dies immediately, later, or not at all.

 

[H Richard]

The 1910 is an easily carried gun, very slim and easy to conceal. It is very naturally pointable, and good accuracy at 10-12 yards. Never shot at a longer distance. The .25 is a viable backup to a larger caliber.

 

[DWalt]

" ... a FN Browning Model 1922. This is the same model that arguably started WWI on June 28, 1914. The Bosnian nationalist "fired twice at Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, mortally wounding them." "

Not quite but close. The pistol used was an FN 1910 in .380, the difference being that the 1922 had a longer butt and barrel. No big difference. For many years the pistol used at Sarajevo by Gavrilo Princep was usually referenced as being the FN-Browning M1900 in .32. It wasn't until maybe 20 years ago that the correct gun used was formally recognized as being the M1910. It had been in hiding in a local monastery, and I think it is now on display there, don't remember the details, but easy enough to Google. The Archduke Ferdinand's death car that day was preserved in an Austrian (I think) museum but was destroyed during a bombing in WWII. Princep died in prison after the end of WWI, I think due to TB. TB killed many people back then.

 

[oink]

My general unqualified answer is no, the 380 isn't enough. However, if it's all you can shoot or all you have, or all you can carry, then it's better than no gun and substantially better than smaller stuff.

Yes bullet placement generally trumps all, although sometimes the small stuff fails to penetrate. I can think of a center of forehead shot that failed to penetrate.

I'm also not a big fan of a 38 special out of a 2" barrel but I'd sure have to give the nod to a 38 snubbie for reliability. I'm not one of those that claim only revolvers are reliable and semi-autos aren't but I kinda am as applied to small 380s, especially with HPs.

Between my wife and I we own three 380s. They do have their place.

I personally don't own a .380, but I have considered the M&P .380EZ for my wife. She has trouble with the slide on a Shield 9mm.

Which is why my wife took my Glock 43 and gave me her Shield 9. The 43 slide is a lot easier to operate. I'm OK with the trade as I like the little Shield as well as the 43 and the slide doesn't bother me. You might consider the 43 for your wife.

Is .380acp enough? The answer is a definite "sometimes". If you like the odds, go for it.

No handgun caliber is a definite "always" though the .380acp is generally acknowledged to be on the low end of the acceptable spectrum.

Once you get out of the pocket gun category and come to grips with wearing a holster, there are definitely better options that increase the odds of bullet effectiveness.

Even in the pocket gun category, I am personally more comfortable with the power of a stoutly loaded J frame .38 or mid-range .357.

Truth!

Most of the 80s I carried a .380 PPK not many/any? small 9mms back then and it was for defense not offense ..... once the 3913 came along it got retired except for Tux and Bond movie nights.

I carried a PPKS as my backup for a short while during the same period. I carried it in my inside jacket pocket in the winter, safety off, until it fell out when I took my jacket off in the squad room. The room had that ultra cheap thin worn carpet not much more than thin felt. The gun didn't go off but the dent in the primer was substantial. I traded it for my first Dillon and other reloading supplies. I also bought a 669 shortly thereafter but still kept a back pocket AMT 380.

The .380 ACP cartridge got a bad rep in the United States because at one point in time the cartridge was downloaded domestically in consideration of all the cheapo pot metal semiautomatic pistols on the market at the time. Thankfully, that is no longer the case due to the fact that all the .380 pistols on the market today are of much higher quality, and tend to be built on the inherently stronger tilting barrel/locking breach action as opposed to the more common straight blowback operated pistols of the past.

My EDC is a Smith & Wesson manufactured Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP loaded with Hornady American Gunner XTPs. Being a robust all steep pistol that's built like a tank,..........

PPKS is a nice well built gun with not the best 1st shot trigger and (unless they changed) a safety that needs to be used, and more than the weight of many quality 9s. I actually like the PPKS but there's just better options now for carry. True, the weight of it does tame some of the blow-back recoil so there's that I guess.

There isn't a pocket 9 made that's as small or light as my Kahr P380. Some are pretty close, but my pocket can sure tell especially when it bulges out or droops noticeably with anything larger than the Kahr inside.

True, but you can find a 32 that's even lighter.

Exactly. NO WAY that ANY pocket 9mm is nearly as small and light as a Kel-Tec P32 or Ruger LCP. People that repeat this drivel are kidding themselves. Short of the expensive and fragile Rohrbaughs all "pocket" 9mms I ever seen are significantly larger and heavier than pocket .380s.

A practical 9mm can't be made as small as the smallest practical 380 although there are now plenty of 9s that are as small as many 380, at least nicer shooting 380s. The point is there are many 9s now days that are so compact that in the vast majority of circumstances they are plenty small enough to be comfortably and concealably carried, negating the justification for carrying the smaller calibers. The 380 is still good for back-ups or jogging, etc.

I'll never understand why folks carry FMJ over JHP.

Because 380s are still notoriously finnicky and hard ball can resolve a good bit of that.

And of course I'm always right!

 

[Old cop]

I was a cop for 30 years and survived three deadly encounters with my issued .38 so that's where my comfort level lies. I've tried a variety of .380 pistols and all of them failed, one way or another over time, so I gave up of that platform.

I've also looked at the compact 9MM but all are much heavier than an airweight/titanium J frame and thus difficult to pocket carry w/o a bulge or tell tale sag. For me the small, lightweight J frames are easier to conceal while offering adequate protection against most things a retiree might encounter. I'm not a cop anymore, and have slowed down considerably in my 7th decade.