Is the 40 cal the best SD round

[crsides]

I've been around long enough to see trends in handgun ammo run the gamut. 38spl, 357mag, 45acp, 9mm, now the 40.

I watched some police shoot out history on TV a few weeks ago where 38spl and 9mm bullets failed to stop the bad guys, so the 10mm was developed, ended up being too big, and the show ended with the 40 being THE best all round ammo.

I have heard the 40 was kinda whimpy and you really need to go to a 45acp for stopping power.

I'm pretty much a revolver guy (38 snubs, 357, 41 mag) for defense, but I do have a 9mm that gets called on occasionally. Compac, (3) 16 round mags, and what i consider adequate stopping power in premium ammo.

So what's the real scoop on the 40 cal. Does it win hands down for an auto self defense round. Do I need to step up from 9mm to 40?


Charlie

 

[Doug M.]

No. If you look at what sharp folks like Doc Roberts say, you will find that there is no difference that matters among the common service rounds (9/40/45, and less common, the 357 Sig). This is true in both testing on ballistic gelatin and on the lower value bipedal target population. Premium ammo rather than cheap stuff makes a difference, to some extent, but all things considered, placement is the biggest issue. A pistol is what you carry because you do not expect a conflict; if you expect one and can't be elsewhere, you are not very smart if you are not taking a rifle.

I'll admit, and regularly say it, that in revolvers generally I have gone full reactionary and carry mostly SWCs, or WC target ammo in a .38 snubby. But in a modern autopistol, best quality ammo that has passed rigorous testing is the choice of champs. I buy it in case lots, because you never know which time it is going to count. (And I try to put at least 500 rounds of that ammo through the pistol as a test.)

 

[alwslate]

No Charlie. A step from 9mm to 40 cal would be a step down in my
opinion. Too many reasons to go into here. Use what you have and
feel comfortable with because as has been demonstrated it really
doesn't make much difference, within reason, what you use.

 

[cracker57]

the best cal for SD is the biggest you can handle and put in the smallest groups. Do not worry about what the other guys are shooting. I would rather put every round in the bad guy then miss shooting something a can not handle. I do shoot a 40 but I shoot it pretty well.

 

[1meanZ]

I chose 9mm for the reason others listed above. I'm fairly new to pistols and know I need to practice a lot. I go to the range about once per week and went with 9mm because it is common and cheap. I too have done extensive reading on the caliber topic. Shot placement is the key, not the size of the bullet.

 

[USAF385]

Yes. Yes it is.... For me anyway. Is it the best for you? Only you can answer that.

 

[scooter123]

This should get interesting, because there are a lot of 40 caliber haters out there. Some claim that it's too "snappy" while never mentioning that it's a pussycat when compared to a 357 Magnum. Others claim that it's "weak", which IMO is a rather foolish attitude considering that it typically provides a 180 grain bullet moving along at 1050 fps.

Personally, I've always found that "snap" is in large part dependent on the weight of the gun with the caliber being a bit secondary. For example a full house 357 Magnum can be rather gentle in a 6 inch model 627 and a potential wrist breaker in something like a model 340PD.

As for "power", all handguns can prove a bit lacking in power in some circumstances. However, well placed shots with even a measly 22LR can stop even the most determined assailant. The lesson here is to chose a caliber you snoot well with over any other consideration.

BTW, I carry either a 40 S&W or 45 ACP because I shoot both equally well and am satisfied that either will do the job if needed. However the small size of some of the new 9mm such as the Shield or Sig 938 are tempting and at some point I may pick up one of these compacts as an alternate for a lighter carry option. With modern bullet designs I don't seen anything inadequate about the 9mm.

 

[StatesRightist]

NO, pretty much covers it.

There is no best, but if there were, the .40 is a compromise round, any way you look at it. It's either a reduced 10mm load or an in between for the 9mm and .45, and we have not even talked revolvers rounds yet.

That said, the .40 will certainly do the job and do it well, but it's no grail round. I don't think there is a one size fits all round, it depends on the person. I will say, anything below .38 is a less than preferable round for SD. IMO.

 

[Kanewpadle]

NO, pretty much covers it.

There is no best, but if there were, the .40 is a compromise round, any way you look at it. It's either a reduced 10mm load or an in between for the 9mm and .45, and we have not even talked revolvers rounds yet.

That said, the .40 will certainly do the job and do it well, but it's no grail round. I don't think there is a one size fits all round, it depends on the person. I will say, anything below .38 is a less than preferable round for SD. IMO.

As usual, well said my friend.

The 40 is no more or less effective than other service calibers. And as we all know handguns are poor stoppers anyway.

Personally I don't have a need for a 40. I've tried several times and keep going back to the 45 in a full size gun and a 9 for a compact. But the XDS 45 has solved that problem for me too.

I believe the 40 solved a problem that never existed. However it seems to fit LEO agencies well considering it is a bigger bullet and still offers more capacity than the 45. If some LEO would practice more instead of the once or twice a year qualification, the hit rate would go up and caliber wouldn't matter. Of the LEO that still use the 9MM, street results have shown the 9MM to be very effective.

As concealed carriers it is equally important that we hit effectively with our chosen caliber and repeatedly if necessary. Too many people put too much time and effort agonizing over caliber. So much so that they are willing to argue about their choice of caliber instead of focusing on accuracy under stress.

When you consider that we have to draw from concealment and put ACCURATE shots on target in under two seconds, preferably 1.5 seconds, caliber really doesn't matter. Effective hits do. Even if your 2 or 3 inches off your point off aim, a fully expanded 45ACP is no more effective than a full expanded 9MM. Unless you get lucky. And that's what it is, luck.

 

[Granddad]

There is no right answer and opinions are endless on the caliber debate. My feeling is that the "right" SD caliber is the one that is chambered for the gun you shoot best and are mostly likely to carry every day. If, for you, that is the 40 (or 38, 9, 45 or ....), strap it on and don't look back.

 

[CrossRifles2008]

There is no perfect round it depends on the shooter. I like 40 because of its hatcher rating for stoping power verses felt recoil affecting accuracy. I feel comfortable about stopping power with winchester PDX, but it was FMJ I would sant 45ACP. I never felt comfortable in Iraq with the 9mm FMJ. I would have much preferred a 1911 for FMJ.

 

[venomballistics]

the best SD round is the 155 MM Howitzer. However it has yet to be chambered in an easily concealed manageable firearm. Im not holding my breath waiting for it to be chambered in a carry-able arm let alone a concealable one. All we can do is get as close to this as the laws of physics will allow Everything we have to choose from is a concession.
I cant call 40 the best, I feel 45 and 357 are better while 10MM certainly has a place between these two.

 

[7shooter]

There is an interesting 2011 study by Greg Ellifritz on real world shooting results. He found little real difference between the common handgun calibers. He also included results from shotgun and center fire rifle shootings. Interesting approach. Here is a link to the study :
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

 

[johngalt]

The responses here pretty much covered it. Personally, I would take a .45 over a .40. Not so much because the .45 is bigger, the difference probably isn't all that relevant. But the .40 is a much higher pressure round - 35000 psi vs 21000 psi for .45 or 23000 psi for .45 +P. I've found the .40 to have a nasty sharp recoil, I much prefer the .45 because of it.

Ballistic-wise, the .45 can fire heavier bullets, or similar weight at equal or greater velocity than the .40 can.

IMO, the only advantage to the .40 is greater ammo capacity in similar sized pistols.

 

[C.S.63]

Op, Just another cents worth
If you feel the need to, go for it. But honestly NO. It really is what you are comfortable with, shoot well and have with you when needed. I also have seen a large transformation of calibers and owned most in one form of CCW but have continually returned to the
.38spl in a 640-442 or colt DS.

 

[mc5aw]

The best defense round is the one you never need to find out about.

The caliber debate will always be subjective, with varying degrees of ballistic data thrown in the mix. Different strokes for different folks ...

 

[WR Moore]

I'll throw in a quote from a SAS training specialist who'd had enough of the **** people were giving him about them "only" using a 9mm.

"We can stand here all day and argue about one (caliber) being better than another if you get sloppy and put your bullets somewhere other than where they ought to go. What you can't argue about is that if you run out of bullets before you run out of bad guys, you're (deleted) dead!"

It's placement, placement, placement. Every "failure" I've ever been able to check out, or been provided autopsy information on, has shown a lack of hits in vital areas. This may be due to the bad guys use of cover, or far more often, a lack of application of the fundamentals by the good guys.

There's also a point Charlie Petty commented on: unreasonable expectations as a result of movies. One young officer being interviewed was asked "What's wrong, son?" "He just...............fell down!"

 

[Springfeildkid585]

I've been around long enough to see trends in handgun ammo run the gamut. 38spl, 357mag, 45acp, 9mm, now the 40.

I watched some police shoot out history on TV a few weeks ago where 38spl and 9mm bullets failed to stop the bad guys, so the 10mm was developed, ended up being too big, and the show ended with the 40 being THE best all round ammo.

I have heard the 40 was kinda whimpy and you really need to go to a 45acp for stopping power.

I'm pretty much a revolver guy (38 snubs, 357, 41 mag) for defense, but I do have a 9mm that gets called on occasionally. Compac, (3) 16 round mags, and what i consider adequate stopping power in premium ammo.

So what's the real scoop on the 40 cal. Does it win hands down for an auto self defense round. Do I need to step up from 9mm to 40?


Charlie

With trusted brand jhps in a proven caliber, the best self-defense caliber is the one that comes out of the gun you trust and that meets your needs. I carry a .45 because I feel confident that a .45 fmj will do the job if it has to. (the mag in the gun has speer gold dots, my two backups have fmjs, because flying ashtrays are expensive and I'm far more likely to expend any bullets fired at the range)

 

[cshoff]

"Best" is not a quantifiable standard when it comes to handgun caliber effectiveness. Despite mountains of test and research data, and despite years of controversy, the "best" self-defense caliber is still as illusive as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

In reality, there is about 0.10" difference in diameter between the 9mm and .45ACP bullets, and the .40 falls right in the middle of that. And energy levels from one to another are not all that extreme. The difference between the three is so insignificant, that when we are talking about premium defense ammo, it just doesn't really mean much. Our energy would be much better utilized if we instead focused on placing a substantial number of combat-accurate hits in as short a time frame as possible, regardless of caliber. If one caliber allows you to achieve that goal a little more efficiently than another, then perhaps it's worth a serious look.

 

[Sebago Son]

I have seen first hand what the Fed Spec R-P 155 grain JHP .40 will do to living tissue.

If the .40 in that loading is not the optimum in realistic sidearm cartridges I'd hate to see what is.

Trust this... it's enough.

 

[crsides]

Thanks for all the comments. Kinda thought this would stir up the pot. The documentary left the impression that the ideal SD/Police round had been found ... and it was the .40 cal.

Didn't know if further testing research confirmed this or disputed it. Sounds like 9mm, 40, 10mm, 45 will all do the job with correct placement.... and there is no magic.


Charlie

 

[marshallartist]

I carry the 40 but not because I buy into some macho caliber BS but because it is the easiest to find in my neck-o-the-woods. Most of the police agencies around me carry it and during the "buy anything that goes boom" craze four years ago small quantities could be found when everything else, including 9mm, was nowhere to be found.

 

[Srigs]

I only carry handgun I know I can shoot well with the most potent round possible. For me that is a 357 mag, 40S&W or 9mm depending on the situation.

I agree with Moondawg that any handgun is better than a rock but worse than a long gun. So I carry handguns because they are practical and I can anywhere I choose to go. Choose a JHP or SP because they work much better than anything else in a handgun and don't worry about it because you have to get hits to make any difference so focus on that.

In the end, pick the combo that works for you and train with it so you have a reasonable chance that you will perform if you have too for real. Hope that helps.

 

[s2harry]

You need to test anything before you decide if its for you. Shoot some rapist with it. If he can not move and can not talk its a positive test. Now if you want comparisons then bust up a gang rape... shoot each with a different caliber like .38 special, 9mm and .40 and you will have more info to base your decision on...hows that? uh need more? if there is a 4th perp run him down and stab him in the neck 3-4 times and compare mobility resperation and time of death with the results of gun shot wounds. That should be enough to base your decision....
OK that was fun.... .40 SW is a capable round. Its pressure is 35,000 psi you figure .45 ACP is an 18,000 to 25,000 psi load, 9MM is 35,000 so is .357 Magnum. It is just as capable as anything else, the benefits of it are it shoots 135 to 200 grain bullets that are bigger and heavier than 9mm and .38 and is comparable to .357 while holding more bullets than a revolver. As for .45ACP the .40 is almost the same. Use Golden Saber, Gold Dot or Federal Hydra Shock and sleep well at night....I prefer the 185 grain bullets in .45. For a .40? maybe 165gr.

 

[s2harry]

been reading posts..on another note if I carried a 8 shot 9mm 3913 id shoot 125 gr minimum and shoot the perp many times and check the area safe and head for cover. If I carried a 5 shot .38/357 SW340 or 360 Id shoot 125 gr minimum and shoot the perp maybe three times check the area safe and head for cover. If I carried a .40 Id shoot 155 to 165 gr hit em three times check the area and head for cover. If I carried a .45 Id carry 185s shoot em three times check the area and head for cover. If I carried a 44 Mag Id shoot Power Ball hit em three times check the area and head for cover. Tactical reload in a safe area or during a lull in the fight. Ive got a plan but its not set in cement. Re check the threat make sure its neutralized body armor is COMMON, be prepared to make head shots, learn to shoot on the move, reload in a safe area or while running to one, always carry a reload, ALWAYS carry a reload. And remember you never have to shoot....

 

[Kavinsky]

the guys in FBI shootout from what it sounds like were fearing for there lives against two people who didn't care if they lived or died who were extensively trained and combat harded who had killed atleast one person prior to the shootout just for his car and attempted to kill another for the one they were found with. I think regardless of what they were carrying they were outwilled and out muscled to death by someone hell bent on there destruction in those very close quarters on an open road with little fixed cover.

so unless you were as hell bent on getting them as they were as you I think regardless of what you were using the outcome would have been the same if you were there. regardless if they were using 38's and 9mm's or anti tank missiles and photon torpedos from the USS Enterprise

that and they didnt make damn sure the guy was dead when they finally got one of them to the ground.


other than that I would not blame the issue on lack of stopping power. after all no one knows how the hell there going to act in that kind of situation. As you act as your trained yet nothing can prepair you for that kind of thing when the chips are down and the guns are out. Also they said they were satisfied with the performance of the .38 special +p load used there and the 9mm. still though I think the idea for going with the 10mm was to make sure that if they couldnt get to a rifle they'd have a gun that was on par with one to make it a level fight, I think that is what they were shooting for.

not that the .38 and 9mm's weren't doing there job, just that it would be on par with a rifle incase they fubared again and had the guys with the rifles and MP5's somewhere else instead of where they were needed

that and I think a certain cop by the name of Sonny Crockett was carrying around a 10mm on a popular show at that time and being gun guys they though hey lets try that for a little bit and see how that works out.


still though in all seriousness because of my hand size (very large hands, a full size 1911 .45 acp feels like a pop gun to me) attitude and mentality that I want all the edges I can get I do prefer larger caliber guns to the 9mm's, 38's and 380, but thats purely a personal choice and doesnt mean the above 3 wont do the job when the chips are down.

I just prefer larger caliber guns as I feel more comfortable with them and I like them better than the smaller ones.

 

[federali]

Day One of the New Era: FBI Miami Shootout

The FBI Miami shootout, together with the influence the FBI has on tactics, calibers and firearms, prompted a search for a more effective bullet. This went in two directions: better bullets for existing calibers and a new caliber combining the firepower of a 9mm with the effectiveness of the .45 ACP.

The FBI shootout would have ended differently if the LEOs had Rangers or Critical Duty ammo ammo but they didn't exit at the time.

The .40, even though I don't care to own yet another caliber, is highly effective but while we were looking for a new or more effective caliber, along came plastic guns that, when combined with a snappy recoil, made recoil management more challenging.
A .40 in an all-steel handgun would probably be the best of both worlds.

 

[Kavinsky]

The FBI Miami shootout, together with the influence the FBI has on tactics, calibers and firearms, prompted a search for a more effective bullet. This went in two directions: better bullets for existing calibers and a new caliber combining the firepower of a 9mm with the effectiveness of the .45 ACP.

The FBI shootout would have ended differently if the LEOs had Rangers or Critical Duty ammo ammo but they didn't exit at the time.

The .40, even though I don't care to own yet another caliber, is highly effective but while we were looking for a new or more effective caliber, along came plastic guns that, when combined with a snappy recoil, made recoil management more challenging.
A .40 in an all-steel handgun would probably be the best of both worlds.

I disagree, the shots that hit and were found in the men were fatal shots that just took too much time to effect there body and end them in time to stop them and it was only something like 5 - 10 a piece that landed at the begining out of the 147 or so shots exchanged between them. and they were at that time using the 158 grain +p hollowpoint ammo in there .357 mags they all had save for a guy with a model 36 along with the smith 9mm's they were using.

and that .38 special load is supposedly energywise on par with the .45 acp's 230 grain load.

and from the sound of it in these videos it sounds like it was more along the lines of the tactics and the fact that they had shotguns when they really needed rifles that caused most of the problems here

1986 Miami Shootout (Part 1) FBI Training Video "Firefight" - YouTube

1986 Miami Shootout (Part 2) FBI Training Video Personal Reflections - YouTube

not that the revolvers were to blame per say or the cartridges they were using in them, although I can understand why after that they switched over to the equavalent of a .357 magnum autoloader given the amount of time it took for them to reload them while under fire.

 

[federali]

Disagree on Disagreement

All accounts I've heard on the FBI shootout have Platt doing all the shooting while Matix remained in his vehicle without firing. Early in the exchange, Platt took a 9mm Silvertip fired from 47 yards away, that passed through his upper arm and entered his chest, stopping just short of his heart. Hence, the search for more penetration. It's debatable whether or not this wound would have eventually proved fatal. I suspect that doctors could have patched him up had he made it to an emergency room in a timely fashion. It should be remembered that Platt first suffered this wound, then went on two kill to FBI agents and wound five others.

It is well known that the FBI shootout represents a failure of official policy, tactics, judgment, knowledge and mindset, besides hardware. In plain English, the FBI was out-fought. It was college boys against a hardened and experienced criminal.

 

[StatesRightist]

Kavinsky to add Federali's comments:

I'd also add the reports I've read said that the agent with the Model 19 had it loaded with the .38 special LSWCHP +P (FBI load) and not .357 rounds.

I'm not sure where your info comes from on .38 special vs 45 ACP, but they are not where close in any ballistics comparisons I've ever seen.

As far as the 9mm rounds go, Winchester acknowledged a failure of their Silvertips to perform in the shoot out and promptly redesigned them.

You are right when you say it was a lot more than hardware and ammo that caused the event, poor tactics, policy etc, but the weapon and ammo choices were a significant factors as well.