Is the 40 cal the best SD round

Thanks for all the comments. Kinda thought this would stir up the pot. The documentary left the impression that the ideal SD/Police round had been found ... and it was the .40 cal.

Didn't know if further testing research confirmed this or disputed it. Sounds like 9mm, 40, 10mm, 45 will all do the job with correct placement.... and there is no magic.


Charlie
 
I carry the 40 but not because I buy into some macho caliber BS but because it is the easiest to find in my neck-o-the-woods. Most of the police agencies around me carry it and during the "buy anything that goes boom" craze four years ago small quantities could be found when everything else, including 9mm, was nowhere to be found.
 
I only carry handgun I know I can shoot well with the most potent round possible. For me that is a 357 mag, 40S&W or 9mm depending on the situation.

I agree with Moondawg that any handgun is better than a rock but worse than a long gun. So I carry handguns because they are practical and I can anywhere I choose to go. Choose a JHP or SP because they work much better than anything else in a handgun and don't worry about it because you have to get hits to make any difference so focus on that.

In the end, pick the combo that works for you and train with it so you have a reasonable chance that you will perform if you have too for real. Hope that helps.
 
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You need to test anything before you decide if its for you. Shoot some rapist with it. If he can not move and can not talk its a positive test. Now if you want comparisons then bust up a gang rape... shoot each with a different caliber like .38 special, 9mm and .40 and you will have more info to base your decision on...hows that? uh need more? if there is a 4th perp run him down and stab him in the neck 3-4 times and compare mobility resperation and time of death with the results of gun shot wounds. That should be enough to base your decision....
OK that was fun.... .40 SW is a capable round. Its pressure is 35,000 psi you figure .45 ACP is an 18,000 to 25,000 psi load, 9MM is 35,000 so is .357 Magnum. It is just as capable as anything else, the benefits of it are it shoots 135 to 200 grain bullets that are bigger and heavier than 9mm and .38 and is comparable to .357 while holding more bullets than a revolver. As for .45ACP the .40 is almost the same. Use Golden Saber, Gold Dot or Federal Hydra Shock and sleep well at night....I prefer the 185 grain bullets in .45. For a .40? maybe 165gr.
 
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been reading posts..on another note if I carried a 8 shot 9mm 3913 id shoot 125 gr minimum and shoot the perp many times and check the area safe and head for cover. If I carried a 5 shot .38/357 SW340 or 360 Id shoot 125 gr minimum and shoot the perp maybe three times check the area safe and head for cover. If I carried a .40 Id shoot 155 to 165 gr hit em three times check the area and head for cover. If I carried a .45 Id carry 185s shoot em three times check the area and head for cover. If I carried a 44 Mag Id shoot Power Ball hit em three times check the area and head for cover. Tactical reload in a safe area or during a lull in the fight. Ive got a plan but its not set in cement. Re check the threat make sure its neutralized body armor is COMMON, be prepared to make head shots, learn to shoot on the move, reload in a safe area or while running to one, always carry a reload, ALWAYS carry a reload. And remember you never have to shoot....
 
the guys in FBI shootout from what it sounds like were fearing for there lives against two people who didn't care if they lived or died who were extensively trained and combat harded who had killed atleast one person prior to the shootout just for his car and attempted to kill another for the one they were found with. I think regardless of what they were carrying they were outwilled and out muscled to death by someone hell bent on there destruction in those very close quarters on an open road with little fixed cover.

so unless you were as hell bent on getting them as they were as you I think regardless of what you were using the outcome would have been the same if you were there. regardless if they were using 38's and 9mm's or anti tank missiles and photon torpedos from the USS Enterprise

that and they didnt make damn sure the guy was dead when they finally got one of them to the ground.


other than that I would not blame the issue on lack of stopping power. after all no one knows how the hell there going to act in that kind of situation. As you act as your trained yet nothing can prepair you for that kind of thing when the chips are down and the guns are out. Also they said they were satisfied with the performance of the .38 special +p load used there and the 9mm. still though I think the idea for going with the 10mm was to make sure that if they couldnt get to a rifle they'd have a gun that was on par with one to make it a level fight, I think that is what they were shooting for.

not that the .38 and 9mm's weren't doing there job, just that it would be on par with a rifle incase they fubared again and had the guys with the rifles and MP5's somewhere else instead of where they were needed

that and I think a certain cop by the name of Sonny Crockett was carrying around a 10mm on a popular show at that time and being gun guys they though hey lets try that for a little bit and see how that works out.


still though in all seriousness because of my hand size (very large hands, a full size 1911 .45 acp feels like a pop gun to me) attitude and mentality that I want all the edges I can get I do prefer larger caliber guns to the 9mm's, 38's and 380, but thats purely a personal choice and doesnt mean the above 3 wont do the job when the chips are down.

I just prefer larger caliber guns as I feel more comfortable with them and I like them better than the smaller ones.
 
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Day One of the New Era: FBI Miami Shootout

The FBI Miami shootout, together with the influence the FBI has on tactics, calibers and firearms, prompted a search for a more effective bullet. This went in two directions: better bullets for existing calibers and a new caliber combining the firepower of a 9mm with the effectiveness of the .45 ACP.

The FBI shootout would have ended differently if the LEOs had Rangers or Critical Duty ammo ammo but they didn't exit at the time.

The .40, even though I don't care to own yet another caliber, is highly effective but while we were looking for a new or more effective caliber, along came plastic guns that, when combined with a snappy recoil, made recoil management more challenging.
A .40 in an all-steel handgun would probably be the best of both worlds.
 
federali said:
The FBI Miami shootout, together with the influence the FBI has on tactics, calibers and firearms, prompted a search for a more effective bullet. This went in two directions: better bullets for existing calibers and a new caliber combining the firepower of a 9mm with the effectiveness of the .45 ACP.

The FBI shootout would have ended differently if the LEOs had Rangers or Critical Duty ammo ammo but they didn't exit at the time.

The .40, even though I don't care to own yet another caliber, is highly effective but while we were looking for a new or more effective caliber, along came plastic guns that, when combined with a snappy recoil, made recoil management more challenging.
A .40 in an all-steel handgun would probably be the best of both worlds.
Click to expand...


I disagree, the shots that hit and were found in the men were fatal shots that just took too much time to effect there body and end them in time to stop them and it was only something like 5 - 10 a piece that landed at the begining out of the 147 or so shots exchanged between them. and they were at that time using the 158 grain +p hollowpoint ammo in there .357 mags they all had save for a guy with a model 36 along with the smith 9mm's they were using.

and that .38 special load is supposedly energywise on par with the .45 acp's 230 grain load.

and from the sound of it in these videos it sounds like it was more along the lines of the tactics and the fact that they had shotguns when they really needed rifles that caused most of the problems here

1986 Miami Shootout (Part 1) FBI Training Video "Firefight" - YouTube

1986 Miami Shootout (Part 2) FBI Training Video Personal Reflections - YouTube

not that the revolvers were to blame per say or the cartridges they were using in them, although I can understand why after that they switched over to the equavalent of a .357 magnum autoloader given the amount of time it took for them to reload them while under fire.
 
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Disagree on Disagreement

All accounts I've heard on the FBI shootout have Platt doing all the shooting while Matix remained in his vehicle without firing. Early in the exchange, Platt took a 9mm Silvertip fired from 47 yards away, that passed through his upper arm and entered his chest, stopping just short of his heart. Hence, the search for more penetration. It's debatable whether or not this wound would have eventually proved fatal. I suspect that doctors could have patched him up had he made it to an emergency room in a timely fashion. It should be remembered that Platt first suffered this wound, then went on two kill to FBI agents and wound five others.

It is well known that the FBI shootout represents a failure of official policy, tactics, judgment, knowledge and mindset, besides hardware. In plain English, the FBI was out-fought. It was college boys against a hardened and experienced criminal.
 
Kavinsky to add Federali's comments:

I'd also add the reports I've read said that the agent with the Model 19 had it loaded with the .38 special LSWCHP +P (FBI load) and not .357 rounds.

I'm not sure where your info comes from on .38 special vs 45 ACP, but they are not where close in any ballistics comparisons I've ever seen.

As far as the 9mm rounds go, Winchester acknowledged a failure of their Silvertips to perform in the shoot out and promptly redesigned them.

You are right when you say it was a lot more than hardware and ammo that caused the event, poor tactics, policy etc, but the weapon and ammo choices were a significant factors as well.
 
the feds got in one fatal hit with a 9 which may have been a game changer in that it deterred the perp from a route that would have had devastating effect on the agents. He, however kept on truckin. Shot guns seem to have had the greatest effect despite being used in far less than ideal conditions with both perps shielded by the car. Still didnt end the fight, but arguably took enough starch out of them to where the last coherent remains of a wounded agent was able to finish the job with a revolver.
that was a ghoulish exchange by any measure.
Had that fatal hit from the 9 been a 12 ga slug Half the problem arguable would have come to resolution far quicker and arguably would have afforded more direct attention to the remaining half.

one perp being hit 6 times and the other hit 12 times says a lot about the power of determination. The perp we encounter as civilians might be no different from Platt and Mattix.
also cross reference the agent who took devastating hits from a rifle, in some cases, shaking off the hits to keep right on a rockin, only to slow down after they realized what the tap on the shoulder was. "Oh wait dude I can't use that arm .. its GONE"
I can't carry a 155MM but I won't carry a 9MM I know my 45 may, in these cases, take a little longer to work than I'd like, even if I manage to do my part, which I'm sure would feel like an eternity. even still, the 9 took far too long, and the attacker made way too much additional gore before being made manageable with applications of everything else
 
Comparing 1980s 9mm HP ammo and todays quality HP ammo is apples to oranges.

Shot placement is crucial, we all know that!

There is no perfect cal. For every calibration out there there were people who, when hit, dropped dead on the spot and those who took multiple hits and kept on going.

Watching the Disc. channel not long ago when there was a special about gangs and LA gangs. One gang banger was proud to show of his wounds. Lifted his shirt to shot half a dozen 40 cal bullet holes stretching from his waist to his chest. He survived a whole bunch of shots from a 40s&w. Does that make the 40 a bad cal? No! It makes the gang banger a lucky ***
 
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Arik said:
Comparing 1980s 9mm HP ammo and todays quality HP ammo is apples to oranges.

Shot placement is crucial, we all know that!

There is no perfect cal. For every calibration out there there were people who, when hit, dropped dead on the spot and those who took multiple hits and kept on going.

Watching the Disc. channel not long ago when there was a special about gangs and LA gangs. One gang banger was proud to show of his wounds. Lifted his shirt to shot half a dozen 40 cal bullet holes stretching from his waist to his chest. He survived a whole bunch of shots from a 40s&w. Does that make the 40 a bad cal? No! It makes the gang banger a lucky ***
Click to expand...

12 Ga versus 9mm is apples to oranges ... 9mm then and now is more like granny smith versus McIntosh.
yeah things have advanced some, but we are still talking about the same mass at the same velocity with a slight difference in terminal performance, blown out of proportion to sell bullets at a premium.
Shot placement .. that 9 had it and I have no doubt that Platt would have eventually gave up the ghost from it ... but still not in time to save a lot of bloodshed. All things equal and the silver tip traded for a new whizbang offering ... penetration would have been given up to the latest trend in anti zombie gear.
the feds needed a truck to park on him.
 
StatesRightist said:
Kavinsky to add Federali's comments:

I'd also add the reports I've read said that the agent with the Model 19 had it loaded with the .38 special LSWCHP +P (FBI load) and not .357 rounds.

I'm not sure where your info comes from on .38 special vs 45 ACP, but they are not where close in any ballistics comparisons I've ever seen.

As far as the 9mm rounds go, Winchester acknowledged a failure of their Silvertips to perform in the shoot out and promptly redesigned them.

You are right when you say it was a lot more than hardware and ammo that caused the event, poor tactics, policy etc, but the weapon and ammo choices were a significant factors as well.
Click to expand...

there was a guy on here who talked about it on a thread about stopping power. Where the thread poster was talking about going with a .45 acp for self defense and then this guy brought up that he could go with a .38 as well thats on par with the .45 acp power wise. as muzzle energy wise that .38 special +p 158 grain FBI load had as much muzzle energy as a .45 acp 230 grain load

although he failed to mention it was also supersonic, above 1000 FPS while the .45 acp in its normal loading is just under that at 850, not exactly a good thing in an enclosed room if one values his hearing and doesnt have time to put his earplugs on

300 or 350 foot pounds of energy I think which considering its not listed in the book I have, Cartridges of the world 12th edition by Frank C Barnes I'm not sure where he got either, but I believe he was also the one who mentioned the velocity too.

but however it does say that a 158 grain .38 special JHP going at 900 feet per second does put out 284 foot pounds on page 291 of the book. So with an extra 200 FPS it could probably reach the listed 330 foot pounds of the 230 grain load on page 300


that and well with cars sheilding the perps the only way your really going to go through them is if well you've got a proper magnum cartridge in your gun, either that or a rifle which is what I think the FBI guys should have had in the first place as an M1 Garand would have made mince meat of both of them in a heartbeat.

and only that really as a shotgun wasnt made for that kind of work, only a rifle would have put a quick end to that. hell it was one of the things ALSO said in Keith's sixguns 30 years earlier than the only way your really going to stop bad guys bent on your destruction in a car is with a proper rifle.

or atleast a shotgun with sabo slugs.
 
During my 30 year LEO days I had to use my duty weapon on more than one occassion. Each time it was a .38 and it worked because I was well trained and had the best equipment available at the time.

As others have said carry what works best for you, practice as often as possible and hope you never have to find out if any of it "works."
 
I advise not getting caught up in the hi capacity lure. Police need high capacity because they run a great risk of getting into a protracted gunfight, thus the tendance to carry 40mm or 9mm. The average citizen isn't likely to need such capacity. Per officers I know, most shootings of citizens trying to answer a threat are completed in 1 to 3 rounds. More than that and your survival chances go way down.

So with that said, the 40 has nothing on a 45 for self defense or even a 357 wheelgun.
 
Capacity is very important to me. From what I have seen on the job and changing trends. The old stats of "3 shots fired with in 3 yards" has passed with the years. Today bad guys run in packs and have the firepower too. And those on the newer, synthetic drugs take more rounds to stop their actions. More rounds are being fired today in lethal force encounters. No gunfight is average, routine, or stays in line to satisfy a statistic. When things go bad, they suddenly get worse. I will take capacity over caliber any time as with modern ammo the playing field is leveled. No one who has actually been in a gunfight has complained they had too large of a pistol and had too much ammo. Bill
 
The Sarge said:
Capacity is very important to me. From what I have seen on the job and changing trends. The old stats of "3 shots fired with in 3 yards" has passed with the years. Today bad guys run in packs and have the firepower too. And those on the newer, synthetic drugs take more rounds to stop their actions. More rounds are being fired today in lethal force encounters. No gunfight is average, routine, or stays in line to satisfy a statistic. When things go bad, they suddenly get worse. I will take capacity over caliber any time as with modern ammo the playing field is leveled. No one who has actually been in a gunfight has complained they had too large of a pistol and had too much ammo. Bill
Click to expand...

I recently read an article published by the FBI which states the number of rounds expended has seen a significant increase. Wish I could find that article. :rolleyes:

We all carry for the same reasons. But what we carry, the caliber and how we carry will always differ. The biggest factor in those decisions is the geographical area in which we live.

In you live in Smallville and think a j frame without a reload is for you, so be it although I think your nuts. But that's my opinion. :cool:

The odds of having to use a firearm to defend myself is pretty low. But I figure that if I have to, it will be just my luck to have to do so against two or more bad guys with high capacity guns.

So I carry two guns with a reload for the primary at all times. And none of them is a 40SW.;)
 
multi gun and or easy reloads are something I totally agree with, even in some backwater smallvile type area.
Meth labs are everywhere. they do not discriminate per population density. as a result, the possibility of a major conflict is a valid concern. much more so than it may have been 20 years ago. I think anyone who carry's a 380 in the role of solo primary is a fool. I question the reasoning of it in the role of a backup for a major caliber primary as well. I like the idea of a +P 38 snub as a BUG myself and probably wouldnt accept anything less.
My primary is a 45 auto and will likely remain a 45 auto.
Ive used speed loaders with revolvers ... While its better than a pocket full of loose cartridges they can be tricky in the clutch. Even speed shooting with a fast reload involved is often enough pressure to illustrate the potential for hangups. it could only be worse while being shot at. mag changes are far easier under pressure. We don't get to pick our gunfights .. if ever we do, its probably not justifiable. it will likely be done before the slide locks back, but long protracted shootouts can and do happen. We walk the same streets as the cops you expect to have such accounts. the players have no reason to treat us as special
 
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