Is the 40 S&W dieing?

[Harley Fan]

I'm an enthusiastic reader of this forum, and rarely post, but I'll weigh in on this one. And I'll try not to make a short story long...

I came into the .40 S&W cartridge by accident. I'm on an extreme budget (you see by my avatar where my cash goes) and I came into ownership of a never-shot Glock G22 Gen 4 by swapping some goods and services for it. This was my first Glock and my first in .40 S&W. Now, I'm a reloader, and everything I own I have to reload for, to afford the habit. So, I ordered up some Lee dies, bought a couple Win white boxes of ammo, went to the range, and was surprised. Now, I can't hit a barn with my son's G-17 and G-30S, but I found my new pistol manageable, and accurate.

About this time, a friend passed away, an avid shooter and collector. His widow passed along to me a significant amount of his stored ammo, and powder, etc. Among this cache of stuff was a great deal of Winchester range ammo, and many boxes of Black Talon hollowpoints.

The Win white box, I was to find, was quite old... probably bought at the very first production release. This was oddly packaged by Winchester, perhaps, and improperly stored by my friend. As you can see, perhaps there was a chemical reaction from the paper separators reacting with the brass. Well, I shot several magazines of this stuff. And the Glock (as Glocks do) dutifully fired and ejected this stuff without a problem. I did not see the results of this brass failure until I got home and cleaned this brass.





Naturally, I didn't use any more of this stuff.

Anyway, I went on a tear, learning all I could about reloading for the .40. The Glock bulge, the Lee bulge-buster, finicky pressure limitations, etc. As a result, I've developed several very accurate loadings for this ugly ol' Glock, using both V V and Win WST powder and coated lead FP's.

Now, I told you all that stuff to tell you this one. I'm presently in the market for a concealed carry, and at the top of my list is a Performance Center Shield in .40 S&W.

So, it doesn't matter to me that the popularity of the .40 is on the wane... this will keep the prices reasonable on a pistol I would love to own one day- the Smith 4006.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I love the .40 S&W as an alternative to the great .45 ACP. I'll keep a .40 on hand and not worry about it.

It's the 9mm for which I have little regard. I haven't really bought into this popular internet notion that "with the wonders of modern expanding bullet technology" the 9mm is every bit as good as the larger caliber cartridges shooting heavier bullets."

It may be observed that it's only the 9mm fans that make that claim.

 

[BrianXIX]

It's worth recalling that the .40 S&W was very popular during the Clinton Assault Weapons ban with it's 10 round magazine limit. That is due in part because with a 10 round limit you could design a handgun that would put 10 rounds of .40 in a 9mm sized frame whereas 10 rounds of .45 ACP was still a handful.

He right. If your limited to only 10 rounds, you're going to go with the more powerful round. 9mm is great when you can have 15-17, but when limited to 10.....it changes the game. The 40 will be Yuge again once Klinton wins and passes a new AWB.

 

[Hodado]

40 S&W just like other handgun calibers has no magical allure. As to your question, and this applies ONLY to my area, everybody wants to dance with the new girl in town. 40 cals here are at the bottom of area shooter want lists.This is good for most of my guys. We buy them and use them like the cheap buggers they are. Last week bought a G23 and a G27 and 1,000 rounds of Magtec HPs for $500. Good cheap work guns.

I'd take a deal like that all day long,If the.40 is on the bottom of the buyer's list it sounds like a buying opportunity to me,but on the other hand if you can't handle it don't buy it

 

[QED]

Actually, a good case can be made that .40 cal is the most effective (terminally) overall service handgun caliber. Although (only) .45 ACP has a terminal advantage in gel or soft tissue due to greater bullet weight -- that's not the case when barriers are involved where bullet kinetic energy matters quite a bit. And most of us know that terminal effectiveness "on the street" cannot be determined solely by bullet performance in gel or soft tissue. The popularity of .40 cal is declining since many evidently have accepted the silly notion that "modern bullet improvements" have made 9mm equivalent to any other service caliber; this silly and delusional notion has very little basis in reality/physics.

 

[TTSH]

It's worth recalling that the .40 S&W was very popular during the Clinton Assault Weapons ban with it's 10 round magazine limit. That is due in part because with a 10 round limit you could design a handgun that would put 10 rounds of .40 in a 9mm sized frame whereas 10 rounds of .45 ACP was still a handful.

He's right. If you're limited to only 10 rounds, you're going to go with the more powerful round. 9mm is great when you can have 15-17, but when limited to 10... it changes the game. The 40 will be huge again once ******* wins and passes a new AWB.

Yes and no. As a civilian living in a state which still has the old Federal AWB (and worse) in place, we tend to think of things a little differently in regard to buying brand new (non-pre-ban mag capable) semi-auto pistols. The bottom line is that it does not typically drive us from 9mm into .40's, especially in plastic pistols. I've just not seen that. Rather, it is much more likely to drive us into .45 ACP in our full-size pistols while many of us end up optimizing for 10+1 rounds of 9mm in our carry pieces (Example: My SR9c - very popular here).

It's important to keep in mind that cops were exempt from the old Federal AWB and they are very likely to be exempt from the next Federal AWB. If some departments did or will change to .40, it will not be because they were limited in capacity... because they never were and never will be. It was, and will likely always be, strictly a civilian problem.

I say this as a big fan of the .40 in full-size all-metal pistols. In the end, who knows how the market will adjust to a new Federal AWB and what the rules may be regarding pre-ban magazines. The ***** of it, I'm sure, will be in the details.

 

[Brendan2904]

I don't think it's a dieing. I just think that 9mm is more readily available and in my case adding another similar caliber to my collection isn't cost effective.

 

[StakeOut]

Two things I've never owned are a Glock and a .40 S&W of any make.

When it counted,the so called lowly .38spl did the job for me out of an S&W Model 10-6 and a Colt DS with me getting the 1st place trophy and the bad guy getting second place(Jordan).

I have several 1st,2nd and 3rd generation Smith 9mm that I enjoy shooting and having on my nightstand.

What I carry depends on my mood that day but I don't buy any ammo that's hyped as "Defense"by marketing departments of ammo makers for greater profit margins.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

...........lemmings......blindly following each other off the cliff..........

 

[W.E.G.]

.38 special is double dead

 

[fdw]

A few years back I picked up a used police trade 40 M&P from Buds. I probably put 500-600 rounds through it and ended up getting a Storm Lake conversion 9 for it.

The 40 was fine, I didn't have a problem with recoil but after satisfying my curiosity I just decided I'd stick with the 9. Ammo is a little cheaper too.

Here's my 40 with the SL barrel, truglo sights and stippled grips. Trigger is outstanding, I guess it was good and worn in when I got it.

 

[clarkz71]

He's right. If your limited to only 10 rounds, you're going to go with the more powerful round.

9mm is great when you can have 15-17, but when limited to 10.....it changes the game.

That's what made my decision. Sold my Glock 23
and bought a M&P9 FS.

17 rounds of GD 124gr +p , vs 13 rounds of .40 whatever.

Ballistics and testing of that Gold Dot are quite good
per expert Massad Ayoob.

 

[StakeOut]

If you every get into a situation where you need to fire the weapon that's closest to you at the time you may find out that it's not the gun or the bullets that will let you survive.

How many rounds are enough when you are under stress and not a very good shot?

http://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/...2477051245/640x360_MP4_505084212477051245.mp4

 

[kannonvaggon]

What about all the " kaboom " talk regarding the .40SW Shields a while back ?? There have been a lot of threads regarding the " unsupported " and poorly designed .40SW Shield when compared to it's 9mm cousin.
Has all this "talk" died away along with the market for this small pistol in .40SW ??

Talk amongst yerselves .... !

 

[TexasRaider]

Frankly, yes it is. But not because of any issue of effectiveness. I don't believe that any 'trend' or the rising popularity of any cartridge since the mid-to-late 1980's has had a darn thing to do with ammo performance. None. The consumer firearms community tends to follow what govt. LEO agencies are doing at the moment. And IMHO the FBI is not, repeat NOT, issuing the 9mm right now because it’s actually a better performer than the .40 S&W, .357 Sig or .45 ACP. It is only superior in terms of how the FBI arbitrarily decided to score its performance using a system that I find suspect and very debatable.

Let’s be clear, the current popular 9mm trend isn’t just geared towards any 9mm, but rather specifically the FBI’s deep penetrating, moderate-velocity, slow expanding breed, a particular type they’re in love with for their own convoluted bureaucratic reasons. And now the trickle down has kicked in and thousands of other agencies are taking the FBI's lead and issuing the 9mm, therefore the ammo and pistol makers are following suit and jumping on board because they desperately want to cash in on those contracts. And if the contract says 9mm these manufacturers are going to offer 9mm. It's a profit driven fashion show.

Now, the FBI issued the 9mm before and claimed it was the greatest combat round you could get and they crowed that the 115 gr. Winchester Silvertip was the gold standard. Then their horrible training got two agents killed in Miami in 1986 that same round was the villain of the shootout and made to blame. All of sudden overnight the FBi said the 9mm was inferior and after a multi-million dollar 'Wound Ballistics Seminar' they claimed the 10mm was the round of the future. Until their Agents complained that the Mighty Ten had way too much blast and recoil. So they gutted it and replaced it with a weak 180 gr. round that made it pointless. Then they said, "Uh, scratch that. 10mm guns are too big and noisy, too. What we really, really meant was that a truncated 10mm called the .40 S&W is best round available." Now they’re saying they’ve overcome the laws of physics and the 9mm now can outperform any other caliber while running pretty mild, low recoiling, deep digging rounds. Back to the 9mm, boys.

Please. Anyone taking ammo advice from the FBI isn't paying attention to their history or their political sleight of hand when covering their staggering capriciousness and inconsistency. I believe the most devastating handgun round ever issued was the 125 gr. SJHP .357 Magnum. The only chambering I know that comes close to replicating that without wrecking one's pistol with +P+ pressures is the 125 gr. .357 Sig. Yeah, it's basically a 9mm but it doesn't follow the FBI's methodology and shouldn't be effective. But it is, and very much so. The shooting results I’m aware of that come from a very large southern Highway Patrol agency who've issued that chambering since 1998 show that it’s an outstanding man-stopper. 100% effective? No. But no handgun round is, get a M1 Garand if you want that. But as handgun cartridges go, it’s amongst the best semi-auto chambering I think one can carry, amongst a few others. I'm sure those with access to shooting results from intelligently loaded 40’s and 45’s can also show outstanding results.

But these agencies are now dropping the .40 S&W, 45 ACP and .357 Sig for the 9mm because it's 'better'? In what way? Higher capacity? So you get more of a less effective thing? Easier to shoot? Than what? Any pistol caliber can be shot fast and accurately with appropriate training; no conventional pistol round shoots like a 12-gauge slug from a break open single barreled shotgun. It’s a handgun round, for crying out loud. And why is that the new trendy 9mm has to be a relatively mild 135 to 147 gr. going only 900-1100 fps? Because of low recoil and deep penetration? Or is it because the combination of a mild 9mm coupled to a polymer striker fired pistol makes qualifying easier and one doesn't have to spend a large deal of time or the budget actually teaching pistol craft and marksmanship? And makes it easier for smaller, non-conventional police applicants to pass (read: short stature, small framed, female, etc). So our firearms equipment needs to be a ‘Safe Place’? Gad…

I don't know if the .40 S&W is dying, but it is fading. As are other main stream police cartridges, but not for any real world reasons that can be defended logically if we’re talking pure round for round performance. Yes, any bullet shot into a human body can kill. But using the FBI's formula of easy shooting, deep penetrating, low recoiling, high capacity rounds, why not issue the .22 Magnum in a 30 round Kel-Tec PMR-30? Using that logic, it’d be the perfect FBI round.

I doubt the .40 S&W will ever totally disappear, it’s hardly a .41 Action Express or 13mm Gyrojet. But as long as the market takes its lead from huge, bloated, unaccountable Federal agencies, we will continue to repeat ridiculous cycles like this….

 

[QED]

Now, the FBI issued the 9mm before and claimed it was the greatest combat round you could get and they crowed that the 115 gr. Winchester Silvertip was the gold standard. Then their horrible training got two agents killed in Miami in 1986 that same round was the villain of the shootout and made to blame. All of sudden overnight the FBi said the 9mm was inferior and after a multi-million dollar 'Wound Ballistics Seminar' they claimed the 10mm was the round of the future. Until their Agents complained that the Mighty Ten had way too much blast and recoil. So they gutted it and replaced it with a weak 180 gr. round that made it pointless.

Following '86 incident and after two years of testing, a 180 grain JHP @ ~ 980 fps was shown to be somewhat terminally superior to .45 ACP JHP competitor; hence, .40 S&W was given the green light. Both were, of course, found to be terminally significantly superior to 9mm rounds. Nowadays, the size of the handgun bullet doesn't seem to matter to some "experts" -- as long as it penetrates 12" or somewhat more in 10% ordnance gel. A prominent participant in those post '86 FBI ballistic workshops, Dr. M. Fackler, would undoubtedly disagree. And it is virtually certain that the laws of physics have remained pretty much the same.

 

[rwsmith]

How dead is dead.....

.38s are ragged edge of performance and could almost be considered 'obsolete', and don't have a fraction of their former popularity, but a lot of people still used them and they aren't dead. I think that if the .40 does drop in popularity, there are plenty enough people that like them to keep them around.

 

[rwsmith]

On the FBI dropping the 9mm

I wrote a somewhat lengthy post and came to the conclusion that I think a lot of people agreed with. It wasn't the caliber of the round as much as it was lack of rifles that was to blame.

I'm just trying to remember now, but I think that one agent got killed while trying to reload his revolver.

 

[NCW Ray]

What about all the " kaboom " talk regarding the .40SW Shields a while back ?? There have been a lot of threads regarding the " unsupported " and poorly designed .40SW Shield when compared to it's 9mm cousin.
Has all this "talk" died away along with the market for this small pistol in .40SW ??

Talk amongst yerselves .... !

And the Shield "kabooms" I've read about were traced back to bad ammo, and one such owner received payment for his Shield 40 from the ammo manufacturer.

 

[sigp220.45]

As a recently retired FBI agent (and firearms instructor) I have a little actual knowledge of the Bureau's use of the 10mm, .40, and 9mm.

No wimpy agents were ever issued the mighty manly 10mm. The ammo guys started with a 10mm case and a 180 grain bullet and added powder until the bullet did what they wanted. This happened at about 950 fps. Then they said, Who wants to make us several million of these?

The only round issued to agents was the 180/950. I know internet folks love to picture nerdy lawyers and accountants whimpering and flinging Norma 200 grain Jeff Cooper loads hither and yon, but it didn't happen. Sorry.

(Also the lawyer and accountant thing hasn't been true since about 1950. About half of new agents are from the military, and there are plenty of former cops, too. To be completely honest, I did work with a guy who was a former HR manager at Sea World, but he was a shooting fool.)

The 10mm handgun died in the Bureau because of the recall of the 1076. By then the .40 was popular, and we went with that. By the way, I had a 10mm issued to me when I retired in June, but it was made by H&K and was full auto.

There is one reason and one reason only we went to the 9mm. The ammo is cheaper. The ammo budget was stagnant or cut every year I was an instructor - raided to pay for computers and the analysts who squint at them all day. If the 9 works as well as the 40 we might as well buy that.

Nobody had trouble qualifying with the 40s, even the girls. Nobody told them it was "snappy". Most will be carrying 40s for years while the 9s get phased in.