Bought this a number of years ago, one range trip, and just put it in the safe. 9/46 Transitional OD? Barrel doesn't have the S. Cockeyed hammer.
What else? TIA
What else? TIA
Is this a rebarrel?
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Here's your Outdoorman's doppelganger, this one S 70828. I think you are right. The serif font does not look right to me. FYI mine shipped in the first month of startup after WW2, August 1946. I would not be concerned about the rib not lining up perfectly, I've seen a lot of them from the factory that were not perfect. That is rust in the line where the ramp connects to the barrel, pretty common.
Is it me or is that a heavy than usual barrel?
Is it me or is that a heavy than usual barrel?
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Amy other opinions on this? I'm surprised so few inputs.
My guess is it is a rebarrel. The "blend" between the barrel and the frame does not look right to me. (For what my opinion might be worth to you.)
Any rework marks on the gripframe?
No diamond on the barrel that indicates a factory replacement??? Check the left side of the butt-frame? Barrel pin show no signs of being removed and replaced. Barrel finish looks the same as the cylinder.
I'm voting for original, unless there are rework stamps on the butt. Even then I'd expect a <> on the barrel if it had been replaced by the factory. Pretty early SN so thought it might have one of the rare checkered rib pre-war 357 barrels but can see the standard grooved rib in one of the pictures. Looks like a nice one to me.
OP
I'll get some pics up.
That's a nice transitional OD! The only thing that would make me think it might be a re-barrel is the "corrosion" where the front sight ramp meets the barrel rib. I've only seen this condition on later (early 1950s) N-frame revolvers like my first year Highway Patrolman. It's been blamed on the bluing salts that S&W used at the time. It could be that those same bluing salts were used in the late 1940s. Your revolver has some interesting things...like the hole drilled in the hammer (for lightening?). I also see something going on in the cylinder holes that almost looks like cracking or peeling and doesn't look like leading. I've never seen that before. Regardless, it's a fine revolver. Enjoy!
That hole in the hammer is a bit odd. As for the cylinder/chambers, I think it just needs a good scrubbing.
The hole is there to lighten the hammer and decrease locktime.
It's a re-barrel with a later vintage (1950's) barrel. The best clue is that it has the barrel headed ejector rod and from the pictures, there is no cut out in the lug for the barrel head. Please see the picture in post number 2. That lug has the cut out.
Also the barrel did not receive its final contouring. The sharp ring at the rear of the barrel where the taper begins has not received its final contouring. A number of years ago, S&W did a giant parts sell-off and released a bunch of Outdoorsman barrels that were not finished. They had this sharp ring or transition. I would speculate that this is one of those barrels that was polished, blued and installed. It could be factory after the Outdoorsman went out of production using one of the unfinished barrels. I would lean towards factory because of the sight base corrosion.
By the way, S&W used hot carbona blueing when this gun was made (and up into the '70's) not blueing salts. That process involved packing the parts in bone charcoal and placing them in ovens. It also involved cyanide. One theory for the corrosion is that the surfaces of the sight base and the barrel were not cleaned properly to remove contaminants from machining. When the parts were heated the contaminants prevented the blueing from forming.
Also the barrel did not receive its final contouring. The sharp ring at the rear of the barrel where the taper begins has not received its final contouring. A number of years ago, S&W did a giant parts sell-off and released a bunch of Outdoorsman barrels that were not finished. They had this sharp ring or transition. I would speculate that this is one of those barrels that was polished, blued and installed. It could be factory after the Outdoorsman went out of production using one of the unfinished barrels. I would lean towards factory because of the sight base corrosion.
By the way, S&W used hot carbona blueing when this gun was made (and up into the '70's) not blueing salts. That process involved packing the parts in bone charcoal and placing them in ovens. It also involved cyanide. One theory for the corrosion is that the surfaces of the sight base and the barrel were not cleaned properly to remove contaminants from machining. When the parts were heated the contaminants prevented the blueing from forming.
OP
More pics, thanks all.
OP
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Jerry in SC
Member
I have a question, was it common for a gunsmith to number the barrel when replacing it?
That makes sense. Impressive post there. I also have an all original pre-27 from 1955 with similar (but less) corrosion at the base of the sight ramp.
Jealous of the King Cockeyed Hammer.
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OP
BTW, shoots like a laser. I need to get it out more.
Jerry in SC
Member
It's a beauty, I'll bet it's smooth as silk.
The CArbona Bluing that S&W used was the same process that all the other major mfg'rs used from around WW1 to just before WW2.
Smith is said to have used it after WW2 as well.
There is no packing of the parts in charcoal (bone& wood char). That is the process used in case hardening.
Cyanide (potassium cyanide) is not used in the Carbona Blue system either. That is used in another method to case harden steel parts. Remington and AH Fox were noted for using that method.
Carbona Blue was a propietary process sold to the mfg'rs by the American Gas Furnace Co.
The proprietary oil used in the method was 'Carbona Oil'. Thick heavy weight black as tar stuff.
According to the Amer GAs Furnace Co, you had to use their Carbona Oil to get the best results.
But some mfg'rs used other oil(s) down to and including plain Linseed Oil (Winchester used it) for small parts like pins, screws, washers, etc.
Winchester, Colt, S&W, I believe Savage used the system as well as non-firearms mfg'ing such as the hardware industry.
The parts are cleaned/degreased (hot gasoline was a favorite solvent!) and hung securely to racks that fit inside of a rotating drum.
The drum is fitted with small paddles on the inside circumference not unlike a cement mixer.
The bone char is mixed with the oil and placed inside the drum.
The drum is sealed except for a tiny port to allow the smoke of the char to push any air (free oxygen) out and keep it out.
The drum rotates slowly and the paddles shuffle, sift and drop the char over the parts as the rotation continues.
Temp is around 850F. Time around 2 hrs.
Like Color Case Hardening, these varied as the individuals running the processes learned to tweak the system for their benefit. Just like CCH and any other process.
Drum w/parts allowed to cool, parts removed and usually submerged in some sort of oil for a time. Then wiped down.
.....
I've always noticed the rust coming from under the pinned on front sight assemblys on their revolvers.
I never could figure how a dry coloring system could have caused the rust.
For all the world to me it looks like rust from a hot salt blue job that was never rinsed out properly.
But they say it's a Carbona Blue job.
If so, why then doesn't that front site ramp rust show up on pre-war revolvers with pinned on sight blades and ramps like the RM and non-RM.
They were being Carbona Blued right in the middle of the time when everything WAS Carbona Blued.
Do they have that issue?
...and everybody else in the gun industry was using the same system to blue as well.
No one else seems to have a track record of that type of creeping rust between fitted parts.
Hot salt Blue came into the gun industry in the USA generally just before WW2.
Winchester started using it in 1937. Some others a yr or so later. Some started just as WW2 ended.
Lots of chances for the creeping rust issue to start anytime around then.
Just some thoughts
Smith is said to have used it after WW2 as well.
There is no packing of the parts in charcoal (bone& wood char). That is the process used in case hardening.
Cyanide (potassium cyanide) is not used in the Carbona Blue system either. That is used in another method to case harden steel parts. Remington and AH Fox were noted for using that method.
Carbona Blue was a propietary process sold to the mfg'rs by the American Gas Furnace Co.
The proprietary oil used in the method was 'Carbona Oil'. Thick heavy weight black as tar stuff.
According to the Amer GAs Furnace Co, you had to use their Carbona Oil to get the best results.
But some mfg'rs used other oil(s) down to and including plain Linseed Oil (Winchester used it) for small parts like pins, screws, washers, etc.
Winchester, Colt, S&W, I believe Savage used the system as well as non-firearms mfg'ing such as the hardware industry.
The parts are cleaned/degreased (hot gasoline was a favorite solvent!) and hung securely to racks that fit inside of a rotating drum.
The drum is fitted with small paddles on the inside circumference not unlike a cement mixer.
The bone char is mixed with the oil and placed inside the drum.
The drum is sealed except for a tiny port to allow the smoke of the char to push any air (free oxygen) out and keep it out.
The drum rotates slowly and the paddles shuffle, sift and drop the char over the parts as the rotation continues.
Temp is around 850F. Time around 2 hrs.
Like Color Case Hardening, these varied as the individuals running the processes learned to tweak the system for their benefit. Just like CCH and any other process.
Drum w/parts allowed to cool, parts removed and usually submerged in some sort of oil for a time. Then wiped down.
.....
I've always noticed the rust coming from under the pinned on front sight assemblys on their revolvers.
I never could figure how a dry coloring system could have caused the rust.
For all the world to me it looks like rust from a hot salt blue job that was never rinsed out properly.
But they say it's a Carbona Blue job.
If so, why then doesn't that front site ramp rust show up on pre-war revolvers with pinned on sight blades and ramps like the RM and non-RM.
They were being Carbona Blued right in the middle of the time when everything WAS Carbona Blued.
Do they have that issue?
...and everybody else in the gun industry was using the same system to blue as well.
No one else seems to have a track record of that type of creeping rust between fitted parts.
Hot salt Blue came into the gun industry in the USA generally just before WW2.
Winchester started using it in 1937. Some others a yr or so later. Some started just as WW2 ended.
Lots of chances for the creeping rust issue to start anytime around then.
Just some thoughts
There is an "S" stamped on the grip frame, right over the main spring screw. I think that is a part of the serial number, that seems missing in other places.
Mike Priwer
Mike Priwer
