Is this a Victory model and other questions?

[Sub sailor]

I found a pistol at a local gun shop but I have a couple of questions about its identification. It is stamped on the left side of the frame "38 special" however the right side of the barrel is stamped "38 S & W CTG". Was this gun at one time chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge and the cylinder rebored to 38 special, or is that the correct marking on the barrel? Or, could the gun have been rebarreled? The gun does not have the original S&W grips, just plain walnut without the S&W round emblem usually found on grips. The gun is parkerized but part of the S&W emblem stamped on the right side appears weak. Was a weak stamp of the emblem common during war time, or is this an indication that the gun was refinished? The serial number is 825*** which puts it during the war time era, but it does not have a "V" prefix. All of these questions are nagging at me and I hope that someone can tell me if this pistol sounds original or if it has be altered or refinished.

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions!

 

[DCWilson]

I doubt that it has been refinished, but it it has been modified to take .38 Special. It originally chambered .38 S&W, or .38/200 as the Commonwealth countries called it when loaded with a 200 gr lead bullet. The modification probably occurred after it left military service and made its way back to the United States after WWII.

That serial number probably indicates 1941 manufacture and delivery. The gun would be considered both a Pre-Victory and a British Service Revolver.

Are there British proof marks on the gun? They are usually seen on the frame or barrel.

 

[Texas Star]

I doubt that it has been refinished, but it it has been modified to take .38 Special. It originally chambered .38 S&W, or .38/200 as the Commonwealth countries called it when loaded with a 200 gr lead bullet. The modification probably occurred after it left military service and made its way back to the United States after WWII.

That serial number probably indicates 1941 manufacture and delivery. The gun would be considered both a Pre-Victory and a British Service Revolver.

Are there British proof marks on the gun? They are usually seen on the frame or barrel.

Assuming 1941 manufacture, the gun was originally blue, until April, 1942, when the cruder Midnight Black or Black Magic finish appeared, along with more tool marks. But some of the later blued UK-shipped guns had a brush blue, which I've never seen. Those I've handled had pretty much a commerical S&W blue on the eariler ones.

I think the US entry into the war caused the need to make the US Victory Model, too, and demands on the factory resulted in the added tool marks and dull gray finish. As long as only Commonwealth orders were involved, and limited US purchases (in .38 Special), the factory maintained better standards.

 

[Sub sailor]

Wow, great information! I had no clue that it could have been a Commonwealth gun. There are some unusual marks on the right side, but I can't remember what they were, but they were right in the vicinity of where it says "made in the USA" (or possibly made in the United States). I will have to take another look at it. The parkerized finish is grey, not black if that helps.

 

[Waidmann]

Since you said all opinions............. I agree with all the above but during the period from Oct. '41 through April '42 things happened. The transition from the commercial finish and nickel medallioned grips to Midnight Black and smooth walnut was not seamless or occurring at a specific serial number.

Is there a WB and ordnance bomb on the butt? I assume if it is marked "United States Property" you would have said so.

Your gun will most likely chamber the .38 S&W. Firing Specials will likely result in bulged or split cases.

With WWII S&Ws many things are possible. While there are known trends there are enough exceptions to keep it interesting. According to the published authority (Pate) inspection rejections ran as high as 30% at times. No doubt some were rehabilitated and later shipped. Shipping dates where known are often not in strict numerical order.

 

[Texas Star]

Since you said all opinions............. I agree with all the above but during the period from Oct. '41 through April '42 things happened. The transition from the commercial finish and nickel medallioned grips to Midnight Black and smooth walnut was not seamless or occurring at a specific serial number.

Is there a WB and ordnance bomb on the butt? I assume if it is marked "United States Property" you would have said so.

Your gun will most likely chamber the .38 S&W. Firing Specials will likely result in bulged or split cases.

With WWII S&Ws many things are possible. While there are known trends there are enough exceptions to keep it interesting. According to the published authority (Pate) inspection rejections ran as high as 30% at times. No doubt some were rehabilitated and later shipped. Shipping dates where known are often not in strict numerical order.

Wow..that's scary. But it explains why some bores and chamber dimensions vary.

 

[Sub sailor]

The gun is still owned by the shop. If I didn't have so many questions about it, I probably would have purchased it. It does not have any bomb markings or US Government Property markings. We took the grips off in the store and there were four faint numbers embossed that did not match any part of the gun serial number. The grips are plain walnut, they are not black and they are not checkered.

Thanks for the info! If you have anymore thoughts or information, I am all ears (or should I say eyes). I will try to stop by the shop later this afternoon and check those markings on the right side again.

 

[JP@AK]

May I offer some unsolicited advice?
Let this one go. Victory or pre-Victory .38/200 guns that have been rechambered for the .38 Special are a dime a dozen and don't make good shooters.
There are lots of decent Victory shooters around and they don't cost a lot of money. I've bought them for as little as $200.
I suggest you look around and find a Victory that has not been rechambered, if you want one to shoot.
Jack

 

[Waidmann]

I agree with Jack, learn the guns, figure out what you really want, be patient.

Good hunting!

 

[DWalt]

I'd agree it's not something to fall in love with as it has a rechambered cylinder. Many thousands were converted in the postwar period for sale on the US market. It's not necessarily unsafe, as I have fired a lot of .38 Special in a converted .38 S&W VM with no case splitting. But it has no collectable value. Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly used a cut-back barrel version of a converted VM to shoot Dallas police officer J. D. Tippitt.

 

[Sub sailor]

I agree about not buying the gun. When I first saw it I just had too many questions and passed on it. The information that you guys have given me just confirms my suspicions that it is not something that I wanted. I do appreciate all of the information and the feedback. Thank a bunch!

I did take another look at it yesterday and I have some more information on the proof marks on the right side. Under "made in the USA" there is "FTR" then "l" then "MA 55" Below that is a crown with "30" underneath it and an "L" under the 30. To the right of the crown is /l\. Over further to the right is "A /l\ F". I am not sure what all of the marks mean, but if anyone can decode those I would love to know.

 

[Cyrano]

FTR is 'factory thorough repair', a depot level going-over for older, somewhat worn guns to restore them to servicability. Marking often found on Australian Victorys. MA 55 is probably the date, May 55. the A/l\F is puzzling: all I've seen is D/l\D which is the Australian Dept of Defense. The /l\ mark is the Comonwealth broad arrow which indicates government property.

 

[Muley Gil]

Smooth walnut grips without S&W medallions are correct for these revolvers. If you check the inside of the right grip panel, you should see a number stamped there that matches the serial number that is stamped on the butt.

 

[Texas Star]

FTR is 'factory thorough repair', a depot level going-over for older, somewhat worn guns to restore them to servicability. Marking often found on Australian Victorys. MA 55 is probably the date, May 55. the A/l\F is puzzling: all I've seen is D/l\D which is the Australian Dept of Defense. The /l\ mark is the Comonwealth broad arrow which indicates government property.

MA= Munitions Australia. Not sure of the other. Try the British Gun Pub on Gunboards, where the experts are.

 

[Camster]

MA= Munitions Australia. Not sure of the other. Try the British Gun Pub on Gunboards, where the experts are.

As others have indicated, a gun that went through Factory Thorough Repair at an Australian Armory in 1955.

 

[Waidmann]

For DWalt, the alledged Victory

A Canadian K-200.

 

[Sub sailor]

Thanks for all the information. All of your inputs have provided much more information than I ever expected to find out about this gun. If this is "factory through repair" does that mean that the work was done by Smith and Wesson or by somebody contracted to do the repair. I am also curious if you wanted to get a letter on this particular gun, or other war-time era pistols, would they have that information on the factory re-work? Once again, I don't intend on purchasing this pistol, this is just an interesting learning experience and I appreciate all the help!