ISO 9mm +P+ load.

[kingranch]

Hi all,
My "house gun" needs a good and fast moving 9x19mm load to assure good bullet expansion and minimal over penetration. Gun in question is a 2nd gen. Glock 17. I'll, most likely, be using 124gr Speer or Remington GS hollow point bullet moving at min. of 1250 f/s. I can go with either standard or 550 CCI primer if necessary. Any suggestions as to bullet weight / type of bullet / type of powder will be greatly appreciated. On a side note…the Speer Lawman 9mm +P+ look very promising…if I only knew what's in it!?

Jack.

 

[David Sinko]

The 124 gr. Speer Gold Dot is a good choice, though I prefer the heavier 147 gr. version. Power Pistol is the best powder I have used for high performance 9mm, and there is no need for a magnum primer.

Dave Sinko

 

[kingranch]

Thanks for your reply Dave.
I did some Goggling, have asked around my local gun shop to no prevail. It almost look like the +P reloading is a taboo subject for most of the reloaders. I guess I'm gonna have to get my chrony back out again and work things out the old fashion way!

Thanks again Dave,
Jack.

 

[Rule3]

9mm is a high pressure round to begin with. +P is even more so. Your original post says +P+ which is ridiculous.
Why would you need a load that extreme.??

 

[OKFC05]

the Speer Lawman 9mm +P+ look very promising…if I only knew what's in it!?

A common misconception, particularly among inexperienced reloaders, is that "knowing what's in factory loads" will allow duplication.
Factory loads often use powders not available/suitable for reloaders, and anyone wishing to reload needs to follow established recipes using published tables for powders that ARE available to reloaders. Factories have the expetise to blend powders and test in pressure guns, you don't.

High velocity 9mm reloads using HS6 are used for fully-supported barrels like those in USPSA Open pistols to make major power for competition, but are potentially disastrous in ordinary pistols. USPSA competitors know and share the recipes for these extra-hot reloads.

The question is not how hot can you load 9mm cartridges (I can easily load some that will blow up any gun), but how hot can you regularly SAFELY shoot in YOUR gun.
The Glock is not fully supported, and a major-power 9mm load will sooner or later leave you standing there with a piece of junk in your hands--or worse.

A max load of HS6 from the Hodgdon tables should serve well enough for a hot Glock load.
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

 

[kingranch]

Why would you need a load that extreme.??

Yeah! Tell that to Mr. Keith or Mr. Linebaugh!
Kidding aside...my goal is to get that 9mm as close to 357Sig performance in the light bullet weight category as I can. Then (I'm asking myself) why not just use one of my Sig 239 in 357 Sig cal instead? Well, I like the 18 rounds + 1 Mr. Gaston Glock's idea better.

 

[kingranch]

OKFC05:

An excellent point and point well taken. All differences in available components aside, a common misconception among reloaders is that duplicating "a factory load" or even making it better is impossible. The whole point of hand-loading in my opinion is to make it better and safer then factory can.

 

[OKFC05]

That's why I suggeted HS6 (regular primers); I can get to 1200fps without pushing my luck in combat tupperware. Just wanted to be sure you knew the hazards of "9mm major" loads (1330fps+) in case you ran across some of the competition data.

 

[Rule3]

Yeah! Tell that to Mr. Keith or Mr. Linebaugh!
Kidding aside...my goal is to get that 9mm as close to 357Sig performance in the light bullet weight category as I can. Then (I'm asking myself) why not just use one of my Sig 239 in 357 Sig cal instead? Well, I like the 18 rounds + 1 Mr. Gaston Glock's idea better.

Well, no offense but you are neither of those guys You already answered what I was going to suggest. Use a 40SW or 357 Sig. But, don't you think others before you have tried maxing out the 9mm??

As suggested a Max (printed, tested) load of suggested powders will give you all the max power you need. There is a reason they do not publish +P+ load data.
Of course you are free to load what ever you want. There is a point of diminishing returns however. Only so many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Be safe.

 

[kingranch]

That's why I suggeted HS6 (regular primers); I can get to 1200fps without pushing my luck in combat tupperware. Just wanted to be sure you knew the hazards of "9mm major" loads (1330fps+) in case you ran across some of the competition data.

I'll take your advice. I'll look up HS6 load data for 9mm, start 10% below max, make 50 of'em and take it to the range and see where I'm at. Thank you again.

Jack.

 

[kingranch]

Well, no offense but you are neither of those guys You already answered what I was going to suggest. Use a 40SW or 357 Sig. But, don't you think others before you have tried maxing out the 9mm??

As suggested a Max (printed, tested) load of suggested powders will give you all the max power you need. There is a reason they do not publish +P+ load data.
Of course you are free to load what ever you want. There is a point of diminishing returns however. Only so many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Be safe.

No offence taken. You see, what "well establish" reloading manuals don't tell you is the part about gelatin test and if that hollow-point opened up or not. Reading FBI, Police and other shootout reports I can't help but notice all the remarks about 9mm or 38 spl hollow-points failed to open up or something like "a suspect shot 25 times in the chest with 9mm ran away!" Remember that I'm asking about SD loads. Now, if 9mm hollow slug fails to open up that I feel that there absolutely is no reason to be messing around with 9mm as a SD round…at all, period! How can I assure my rounds mushrooming? Well, first thing that come to my mind is to make it go faster… hence my original question.

Jack.

 

[Rule3]

But look at it from the opposite point of view. How many deaths are there from FMJ Ball 9mm ammo (as in Military)?
You can't go by the few examples of failure to expand, heck most of the nay sayers will say a 9mm is not big enough anyway. (I am not one of them, I carry a 9)

But here is a interesting site for you:

terminal 9mm luger

 

[WR Moore]

Reading FBI, Police and other shootout reports I can't help but notice all the remarks about 9mm or 38 spl hollow-points failed to open up or something like "a suspect shot 25 times in the chest with 9mm ran away!"
Jack.

The availability of actual LE shooting reports is very slim. War stories, on the other hand, are readily available (note: the difference between war stories and fairy tales is in the beginning. One starts "Once upon a time.." and the other starts off differently.)

Having studied actual shooting reports and the autopsy records that go with them, I offer the following: a good many of those high round count incidents involve shot placement that leaves a lot to be desired, "chest hit" doesn't necessarily mean centered in the thorax; secondly, the low recoil impluse of the 9 can allow a whole bunch of rounds to impact before the recipient has a chance to fall down; finally, there's enough oxygen stored in the brain and muscles to allow 10-15 seconds of directed activity even if the heart and related organs are shredded.

I'd suggest picking a decent FACTORY round that you can shoot accurately and practice rather than trying to work up magic bullets. There's nothing you can stuff into any handgun that's going to make up for sloppy shooting. Load all the practice ammo you want.

 

[roughneck6]

Having carried a 9mm on duty for the better part of 24 years in law enforcement, I can give my two cents. After transitioning from the 38 caliber revolver to the 9mm, we started with the Winchester 115 grain Silvertip. Not sure why but we switched to the standard 115 Fed JHP. After that we used the Fed 115 +P+. The 115 +P+ beat our guns up for over 8 years, when we went to the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot. We have now transitioned to the 180 grain 40 Cal Gold Dot. Our agency has been in many officer involved shootings. I have worked many other shooting incidents as a detective in Robbery-Homicide. My experience is not scientific, just anecdotal. First, there is NO magic bullet. Second it is about shot placement, and the mental and physical demeanor of the suspect, last there is a little luck involved, known as "perp luck".
Most perps I have seen killed were with 25 autos, 380 autos, 38 special, 9mm (ball ammunition) a few 40 cal's and occasionally a 45 ACP.
They are all stone dead whether they are shot once, twice, up to 15 times. Suspects killed by officers in the line of duty had no greater frequency of death between a standard 115 grain JHP or 115 +P+. In fact the 115 +P+ does awful through glass and heavy clothing. The 115 +P+ in our heavy metal gun still showed more recoil, snap, and was much louder. Fired in the Glock that we could carry as detectives just plain hurt my hand.
I still have one 9mm, a 5903, I carry the 124 grain Gold Dot, very little recoil, good penetration when needed, and won't beat your gun up. So, I can see no advantage with hotter loads or +P+ ammunition.

 

[kingranch]

WR Moore;

The availability of actual LE shooting reports is very slim. War stories, on the other hand, are readily available (note: the difference between war stories and fairy tales is in the beginning. One starts "Once upon a time." and the other starts off differently.)

One of well covered shootouts that come to my mind would be the 1986 Miami Fl. FBI shootout. Let me quote from Wiki: Agents:
"Benjamin Grogan: using S&W 9mm pistol, nine rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest. Jerry Dove: S&W M459 9mm pistol, 20 rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head."
There were more FBI agents involved in this but they weren't using 9mm.
Suspects:
William Matix: Killed after being shot six times. Michael Platt: Killed after being shot 12 times.
Scary isn't it? Are we assuming now that the agents weren't trained properly with their sidearm? Or was it a "hardware" related failure? Shortly after this tragedy FBI switched to 10mm Auto (later 40 S&W I presume) tells me that they've put the blame on 9mm!

I'd suggest picking a decent FACTORY round that you can shoot accurately and practice rather than trying to work up magic bullets. There's nothing you can stuff into any handgun that's going to make up for sloppy shooting. Load all the practice ammo you want.

It's been a long time since I bought ready-made factory ammo and I'm a little grey in this area. However, I shoot at least 15,000 pistol rounds a year, a few hundred rifle and a lot of clay and bird targets. Am I proficient and will hold my own with a firearm…you bet. Did I master anything firearm related…absolutely not and I'm far from it! Fact is (just like you said) when it comes down to SD situations people who waste time discussing hardware, do not know what they're talking about. Guys who discuss technique and proper training (given that PROPER hardware was agreed upon) do!

 

[kingranch]

But look at it from the opposite point of view. How many deaths are there from FMJ Ball 9mm ammo (as in Military)?
You can't go by the few examples of failure to expand, heck most of the nay sayers will say a 9mm is not big enough anyway. (I am not one of them, I carry a 9)

But here is a interesting site for you:

terminal 9mm luger

How many KIA's due and from a military 9mm FMJ…since the end of WW2…I'd say; not too many. Special Forces, SWAT teams (H-K MP5's) maybe? I'm familiar with link you've provided me with, box'o'truth and many other. I don't doubt that the author / owner of that webpage is knowledgeable and legitimate fella. But then again, what shooting at the milk jugs full of water has anything to do with anything other than well…shooting at milk jugs full of water? He also disclaims "I'm including two works by other…I have absolutely no connection with either." As we all know (you and I included) everything posted on the internet must be true…right?

 

[Rule3]

The Horse is Dead.

 

[kingranch]

The Horse is Dead.

My condolences.

 

[kingranch]

Having carried a 9mm on duty for the better part of 24 years in law enforcement, I can give my two cents. After transitioning from the 38 caliber revolver to the 9mm, we started with the Winchester 115 grain Silvertip. Not sure why but we switched to the standard 115 Fed JHP. After that we used the Fed 115 +P+. The 115 +P+ beat our guns up for over 8 years, when we went to the Speer 124 grain Gold Dot. We have now transitioned to the 180 grain 40 Cal Gold Dot. Our agency has been in many officer involved shootings. I have worked many other shooting incidents as a detective in Robbery-Homicide. My experience is not scientific, just anecdotal. First, there is NO magic bullet. Second it is about shot placement, and the mental and physical demeanor of the suspect, last there is a little luck involved, known as "perp luck".
Most perps I have seen killed were with 25 autos, 380 autos, 38 special, 9mm (ball ammunition) a few 40 cal's and occasionally a 45 ACP.
They are all stone dead whether they are shot once, twice, up to 15 times. Suspects killed by officers in the line of duty had no greater frequency of death between a standard 115 grain JHP or 115 +P+. In fact the 115 +P+ does awful through glass and heavy clothing. The 115 +P+ in our heavy metal gun still showed more recoil, snap, and was much louder. Fired in the Glock that we could carry as detectives just plain hurt my hand.
I still have one 9mm, a 5903, I carry the 124 grain Gold Dot, very little recoil, good penetration when needed, and won't beat your gun up. So, I can see no advantage with hotter loads or +P+ ammunition.

Your reply is exactly the kind of information I was hoping for and I thank you for that. I've wasted seven years of my life as a firefighter in a major city and saw some things I still (25 years later) regret seeing. Never payed any attention to it because I was young and I just didn't want to know. If you'd find some time and be so kind and elaborate on the "perp luck" and maybe even 'what you've heard from other cops' …unless you don't wanna talk about it I'm all ears and appreciation.

 

[shovelwrench]

Yeah! Tell that to Mr. Keith or Mr. Linebaugh!
Kidding aside...my goal is to get that 9mm as close to 357Sig performance in the light bullet weight category as I can. Then (I'm asking myself) why not just use one of my Sig 239 in 357 Sig cal instead? Well, I like the 18 rounds + 1 Mr. Gaston Glock's idea better.

As others have alluded to, a well placed round will dispatch a BG pretty well regardless of how many +++ are behind it.

A 2000fps 9 in the shin doesnt hold a candle to a .25 in the eye.....