.44 Special +P Loads vs .44 Remington Magnum for Self Defense

[Der Verminator]

BB57 said:

The take away there needs to be that the .44 Magnum won't perform any better in a concealed carry self defense role when it comes to terminal ballistics, follow up shots will however be slower, and for many folks the increased recoil of .44 Mag versus .44 Special in a concealed carry friendly revolver will equate to a lot less practical and less proficiency.

Plus the weight and bulk of the .44 is simply not going to work for the average guy who has to carry every day in a variety of clothing choices.

This, when loaded with one of the several high performance .38 Special rounds mentioned above (and shown on Youtube video)--is the practical choice unless you're sure to meet a griz.

 

[Bald1]

Superman, I don't know how scientific that video was BUT it was impressive. The accuracy of both loads was fantastic. I've been carrying the .38 158gr Outdoorsman load for a while in my K frame woods guns. I can attest to their accuracy. That 44 load would seem to be all that's needed instead of a magnum.

 

[raljr1]

200 gr at 860 fps in .429 caliber. why do you need expansion???

Kinda what I was thinking. How many men died after absorbing a 250 grain slug from a slow moving 45 colt or 44 Russian?

 

[Mike_Fontenot]

If I had to rely on my 629 for personal defense, I'd use my 240 grain hardcast SWC at about 1000 fps. [...] Anything hotter or heavier is just excess.

I disagree. I carry a 5" 629 loaded with full-spec Underwood 240gr JHP's, probably moving at about 1400 ft/sec. I wouldn't want it ANY slower or lighter.

 

[jimmyj]

My #1 priority in any self defense round is the POI in my weapon.
#2 is over penetration
#3 is powerful enough to do what it is intended for.
I have alway preferred big slow moving bullets that the caliber begans with a "4".
Before I got into reloading I liked silvertips in .41, .44, and .45.
In my present age and physical condition weight of the weapon in a important consiteration.
At present if my CCW is a semi-auto I prefer single stack over double stack.

 

[ironhead7544]

CCI used to make a 200 gr JHP 44 magnum Blazer load. I chronoed it at 1200 fps in a 5.5 inch revolver. Very comfortable load.

Sometimes you can find it.

Steinel makes a 200 gr Gold Dot 44 Special at about 1100 fps.

 

[YkcorCal]

I'm still around, and it is still hard to get any real data on self-defence carry rounds for the .44 Magnum; like the one I prefer these days the S&W 629 Performace Center 2 5/8".

Some people say just load your own however if you ever have to defend yourself with handloads you will rue the day in court; especially in many states these days. Read, Massad Ayoob on the subject.

 

[RoyM52]

This thread has been a surprise to me. I thought that everyone that shot 44's reloaded. I didn't realize that people actually bought loaded ammo once they got to .44 cal. {the price of loaded .44 ammo has always been high} Guess I am not that surprised that the manufacturers didn't sell enough of any given load.

As far as using hand loads for self defense. What exactly is a deadly combination anyone could possibly put together that would cry A MORE DEADLY: combination than a factory 44 Mag? More likely to de tune than hop them up.

 

[YkcorCal]

All ammo goes for a premium these days but if you carry it for self-defence make sure it is a factory loading.

Buffalo Bore:

Heavy .44 Special Ammo, 190 gr. Soft Cast HP (1,150fps) out of a 5.5-inch barrel and 1057 fps - S&W mod. 396, 3-inch barrel.

Anti-Personnel 44 Mag. Ammo, 180 gr. Medium Cast HP-GC (1,550 fps), 5.5-inch barrel, 1,387 fps-----S&W Mod. 329, 4-inch barrel SKU: 4H/20

A video you all may be interested in can be found on Youtube by entering "44 Magnum Snub Nose Velocity Loss Test - S&W Model 629 44 Magnum Performance Center 2 5/8"

 

[YkcorCal]

This thread has been a surprise to me. I thought that everyone that shot 44's reloaded. I didn't realize that people actually bought loaded ammo once they got to .44 cal. {the price of loaded .44 ammo has always been high} Guess I am not that surprised that the manufacturers didn't sell enough of any given load.

I carried a Ruger Redhawk 5 1/2" the 10 years I lived, scouted, and hunted in grizzly country. When in grizzly country I carried Randy Garrett 330 grain Hammerheads. If you carry a gun for self-protection prosecutors in many states have used the use of handloaded ammo against the person using such ammo in self defense cases. Such cases are all over the internet.

 

[Biggfoot44]

It seems they still are around and are a viable option. I wish there was more data on such loads as the Winchester .44 Magnum 210gr Silver tip as it was designed as a self-defense round, as to my understanding. Rated at 1250 FPS out of an unspecified barrel length. It would be interesting to see what it actually does out of a 2.5" barrel and in Gel Tests!

From the major mfgs , the usual standard is 4 inch vented test bbl , unless something else is specified .

The .44 mag Silvertip is sort of straddling the line between defensive and medium duty hunting ( i.e. broadside whitetail ) . While 210 gr @ 1250 is somewhat less recoil than the generic 240 jhp @ nominal 1280 fps , it's still substantial .

Back in the day , only after Mag Na Porting was Silvertip barely sorta on the ragged edge of what I considered acceptable rapidity of firing from 2.75 in revolver . I'm searching my memory if I ever actually carried that for duty use , but I know I usually used Federal .44 Spl 200 LHP . ( Which for me , in my hands , gave similar POI to standard .44 Mag 240 JHP .

I've been contemplating re adding it. To rotation . Would likely look to .44 Spl +P since the dropping of Speer Short Bbl .

Why did I largely step back from it back in the day ? :

1. When I happened to do side by side comparison with 4 in M65 , and the M65 was shorter , thinner , and lighter than the 2.75 .44 , and easier to control with full power 125 JHP , than the .44 with ( magnum) Silvertip . Takeaway , if I was willing to carry a frame and cylinder that size , might as well be a 4 inch , and gain back the missing 150 fps . ( And yeah , a 4 inch M624 did join the rotation .)

2. My intended goals for a snub .44 Mag were at best a very narrow balancing act , if not actually elusive .

What were my intended goals ?

Meaningful power increase over .45acp +P from 5in 1911 , while control no worse than K Frame- ish .357 Mag .

 

[YkcorCal]

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness : FBI

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO, VIRGINIA July 14, 1989

pages 14-15

CONCLUSIONS

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit.
Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those
individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival
determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield,
and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient
blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly
destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15
seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of
bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The
bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid
bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the
1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."42, 43 Given desirable and
reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the
wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through
vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is
always with the bigger bullet.44
42 Fackler, M.L., MD, presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico, VA, 1987. 43 Smith,
O'Brien C., MD, presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico, VA, 1987. 44 Fackler, M.L.,
MD, presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico, VA, 1987.

FBI Handgun Ballistics Report GunData.org

 

[sotexas]

My 44 magnum that stands in the corner

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