Oldherkpilot
Member
Nonsense on all three counts.
I've got a rant!! You may not like it....
- Thread starter TDC
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Nonsense on all three counts.
scooter123
Member
One thing I see is a lot of people complaining about S&W changing how they put their revolvers together and claiming that it's a degradation.
For example all the claims that MIM is inferior when there is ZERO evidence that MIM is at all inferior to the older Forged parts. Fact is the S&W's MIM parts have shown they are every bit as durable as forged and with the high carbide content inherent with the MIM process the sear surfaces will likely be much more wear resistant than those on a Forged part.
Then there is the complaint about the change to the internal firing pin. Simple truth is that the old style firing pin was always somewhat fragile and needed to be replaced somewhat frequently.
Then there is the segment who claimed that the tensioned barrel was purely a cost cutting move. In spite of the fact that they have proven to be much more accurate in both S&W and Dan Wesson revolvers.
As for there not being any R&D in a revolver, that is only the case when your building a model 10 to the original 1899 design. All those changes that have taken place over the years are the direct result of R&D. So are all the new models that come out from time to time.
As for all the quality complaints we see, I'm quite certain that there were cockeyed barrels, huge B/C gaps, and hammers rubbing throughout the history of S&W revolvers. The simple truth is that people make mistakes and these deficits are the result of those mistakes. The only difference is that all those antiques have already had those faults fixed many years ago when there wasn't any internet to post complaints to.
For example all the claims that MIM is inferior when there is ZERO evidence that MIM is at all inferior to the older Forged parts. Fact is the S&W's MIM parts have shown they are every bit as durable as forged and with the high carbide content inherent with the MIM process the sear surfaces will likely be much more wear resistant than those on a Forged part.
Then there is the complaint about the change to the internal firing pin. Simple truth is that the old style firing pin was always somewhat fragile and needed to be replaced somewhat frequently.
Then there is the segment who claimed that the tensioned barrel was purely a cost cutting move. In spite of the fact that they have proven to be much more accurate in both S&W and Dan Wesson revolvers.
As for there not being any R&D in a revolver, that is only the case when your building a model 10 to the original 1899 design. All those changes that have taken place over the years are the direct result of R&D. So are all the new models that come out from time to time.
As for all the quality complaints we see, I'm quite certain that there were cockeyed barrels, huge B/C gaps, and hammers rubbing throughout the history of S&W revolvers. The simple truth is that people make mistakes and these deficits are the result of those mistakes. The only difference is that all those antiques have already had those faults fixed many years ago when there wasn't any internet to post complaints to.
fishcreekrim
Member
This thread needs to run in the 80 to current forum, they didn't get the memo.
My simple truth...............
We all want them they way they were. Things change and good and bad comes from it. I agree with quite a bit of what was said. Unfortunately, most of us are too busy living day to day to be worrying about the future. Seems like some people somewhere want it to be that way as it isn't in our best interest for the long term. We all need to pay attention and do what we can when we can for our own existence, as gun enthusiasts or just plain American citizens. I can only add that I love my Smiths. Peace.........
We all want them they way they were. Things change and good and bad comes from it. I agree with quite a bit of what was said. Unfortunately, most of us are too busy living day to day to be worrying about the future. Seems like some people somewhere want it to be that way as it isn't in our best interest for the long term. We all need to pay attention and do what we can when we can for our own existence, as gun enthusiasts or just plain American citizens. I can only add that I love my Smiths. Peace.........
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
Lots of well thought out, informed and intelligent comments here! I believe we can say we're all on much the same wave length. We're all entitled to our own opinions and perceptions. It's how we learn and how others might learn from us.
Avery11, what can I say.... You've placed me with some of the most respected and knowledgeable members of this board and that's a status I haven't yet earned.... Thanks for your generous comments. I hope my participation here will live up to your kind words...
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this important topic. I hope the folks at S&W recognize they have an outpouring of support from many of us (though some may be a tad bit "guarded"
). I also hope some others will give us some of their thoughts, too....
Avery11, what can I say.... You've placed me with some of the most respected and knowledgeable members of this board and that's a status I haven't yet earned.... Thanks for your generous comments. I hope my participation here will live up to your kind words...
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this important topic. I hope the folks at S&W recognize they have an outpouring of support from many of us (though some may be a tad bit "guarded"
). I also hope some others will give us some of their thoughts, too....Actually, I see a bit of a resurgence in interest as well as purchase with lots of the younger crowd and revolvers these days. Very few are like many of us and aspire to own a safe full of nice wheelguns, but one or two, definitely. Autos have taken over for more serious uses, certainly, but when I haul one of my older S&Ws to the Academy range, I get plenty of interest and usually an offer or two to buy from the younger cops. Ditto for the very infrequent trips to public ranges or private clubs, and I doubt there has ever been the interest / sales for the little J frame snubs as either BUGs or 'leave at home with the wife' guns we see today.
I tend to be more optimistic about the revolver's future, and I am doing my part by getting my grandsons into revolvers first before I introduce them to the siren song of the 1911 and the plastic hi cap blasters.
I tend to be more optimistic about the revolver's future, and I am doing my part by getting my grandsons into revolvers first before I introduce them to the siren song of the 1911 and the plastic hi cap blasters.
One of my friends has a 22-4 Thunder Ranch, it compares pretty well to my 28-2.
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well thought out and presented terry...i have a nice collection of oldies however i do have some of the new models as well...my son (age 26) has been collecting since he was 21...he has far more wheel guns then auto's....just is just some things that a revolver will be best suited for....hunting is but one!
Kudos, Terry. Your thoughts mirror my own, although I didn't get started buying revolvers until the '80's. Seems like many here can't accept that times change, and for a business trying to make money, manufacturing has to be as efficient as possible. I have no beef with the new guns, but I don't have any post-2000 models myself, and it does seem like there are some QC issues with some of the models. As has been pointed out, that is not really anything new, but the amplification provided by the internet may make it seem worse than it is.
And, on the cool factor: I see military and LE guys at the range I go to, and I am shocked when they say they have never, repeat NEVER, fired a revolver. I let them try mine, and they are always impressed with the accuracy. Go figure....
Don't know that I've made any converts, but I feel like I'm making headway
And, on the cool factor: I see military and LE guys at the range I go to, and I am shocked when they say they have never, repeat NEVER, fired a revolver. I let them try mine, and they are always impressed with the accuracy. Go figure....
Don't know that I've made any converts, but I feel like I'm making headway 
This pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject as well.
I've not bought any "new" S&W products so you won't hear me bad mouthing them. However, if S&W does not improve the reliability/quality issues alot of people seem to be having why should they stay in business? History has shown that the market/paying customer will determine if you have a product worth buying. Any amount of customer service won't
help your business if you continue to crank out an inferior product. I'll continue to buy the pre-lock, pre-1980 guns for the most part. If my grandkids do not want them when i'm unable to shoot or enjoy them any longer so be it. Revolvers have been around for how many years now? I don't see the end in any foreseable future. As long as movies are made and watched, and as long as there are those of us who remember, there will be those who will want them.
chuck
beemerrider
Member
I concur with the thoughts of the thread starter
I ride BMW motorcycles and have for quite a few years. I would love to buy a brand new vintage "Airhead" BMW from the 1950's or 60's, but guess what? They don't make them anymore, quite likely for the same reason Smith & Wesson isn't making no-dash N-frames. The "market" for any product dictates what gets made, because if the manufacturer is paying attention and responding to the desires of their customers they are much more likely to make things that sell and keep them in business.
I agree "Beating the Dead Horse" with Smith & Wesson is not only non-productive, they are human beings and don't like being hammered on by people who resist change when change is the only reasonable alternative if one wants to stay in business.
Smith & Wesson has always been a top tier company in my view, and while I happen to like the older revolvers, as many of us do, I recognize they have to move on to satisfy the market they have, not the one they may wish they have. While I mostly buy P&R revolvers, I buy S&W's newer models when they fit my needs. I absolutely love the 5" barrel Model 29 Classic with rubber grips that I own. It is as accurate as any of my earlier dated 29's and my perception is that is shoots "softer" as well. So what's not to like?
I worked as a Marketing Representative for IBM in the early 80's, and I was there when the predecessors of the PC I'm using right now, were the "State of the Art" for that time. Anybody want to insist IBM go back to making those old boat anchors, or do you prefer what you are using now? I think not.
Let's enjoy what we've got, enjoy the new models that suit our needs, and support the company that's brought such fun and enjoyment into our shooting lives.
I ride BMW motorcycles and have for quite a few years. I would love to buy a brand new vintage "Airhead" BMW from the 1950's or 60's, but guess what? They don't make them anymore, quite likely for the same reason Smith & Wesson isn't making no-dash N-frames. The "market" for any product dictates what gets made, because if the manufacturer is paying attention and responding to the desires of their customers they are much more likely to make things that sell and keep them in business.
I agree "Beating the Dead Horse" with Smith & Wesson is not only non-productive, they are human beings and don't like being hammered on by people who resist change when change is the only reasonable alternative if one wants to stay in business.
Smith & Wesson has always been a top tier company in my view, and while I happen to like the older revolvers, as many of us do, I recognize they have to move on to satisfy the market they have, not the one they may wish they have. While I mostly buy P&R revolvers, I buy S&W's newer models when they fit my needs. I absolutely love the 5" barrel Model 29 Classic with rubber grips that I own. It is as accurate as any of my earlier dated 29's and my perception is that is shoots "softer" as well. So what's not to like?
I worked as a Marketing Representative for IBM in the early 80's, and I was there when the predecessors of the PC I'm using right now, were the "State of the Art" for that time. Anybody want to insist IBM go back to making those old boat anchors, or do you prefer what you are using now? I think not.
Let's enjoy what we've got, enjoy the new models that suit our needs, and support the company that's brought such fun and enjoyment into our shooting lives.
I agree with many of you guys on the pre-80's guns. My own collection is made up almost exclusively of earlier P&R guns and I have a bunch. I don't expect the following opinion is going to be very popular with some of you but that's OK.
My main concern is the constant hammering of S&W, even in subtle and passive ways, for issues that many of us have realized they will never be able to replicate again.
Do we really want to continually pound them for what we see as weakness that are probably the only economically feasible methods they can use to stay solvent?
Let's face it.... revolvers are "out of vogue" for most of the modern young purchasers. They are much more costly to produce than typical autos, even with the MIM and Goodyear type parts. Revolvers today typically don't receive the image of guns carried by the movie-land "super hero's" like they did in years gone by. I believe it's time to think seriously about the impact we're having on any future revolver sales when we turn off the new generations totally from considering buying them.
The concept of era comparison may sound good to enhance the value of our own collections, but when it becomes just a bunch of us older geezers chasing the older guns with no interest from new people I sincerely believe that will diminish the value of revolvers, including the older ones...
I think back to the mid 70's when 29-2's, 25-2's and 57's were retailing for $279. It was a time when many fully loaded cars were retailing for $4 to $5000. Today comparable cars are $40 to $50,000. If the same pass-through increases were made by S&W today, and if figuring the dollar is worth 10% of what it was, that would mean a new presentation cased, wood stocked N frame would cost us $2,729 today. All things being considered, that horrendous price would offer the old 1 year, pay shipping both ways chintzy warranty too, rather than the excellent lifetime warranty provided today....
That's about three times what a 629-6 costs new today. Is it any wonder why S&W has had to try to cut corners?
We are about to enter a huge new inflationary spiral that will dwarf anything we have seen to date. With all the political and economic pressures confronting all firearms manufacturers, I believe we should be helping all of them to survive, not tearing them down over issues that will never be the same again.... and never can be... JMHO and flame suit on...
What say you?
Sir, FWIW, I buy things based on my needs, not those of the manufacturer.
Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.
Ron H.
beemerrider has summed up the primary issue better than I ever could.... Lots or clear and concise posts in both his and earlier threads that make me proud to be a member.
I believe we need to try to temper the "family feud" between the old guard S&W shooter/collectors and the new and accept and respect everyone's choices and preferences without the debates becoming personal. The common "mine is better than yours" analogy always seems to inflame both sides...
We've seen great companies with fine handguns like Colt and Dan Wesson dissolve in the past. Can anyone imagine what the current handgun world would be like without Smith & Wesson in it? I can and I fear some would love to see that happen.
Just sayin'
I believe we need to try to temper the "family feud" between the old guard S&W shooter/collectors and the new and accept and respect everyone's choices and preferences without the debates becoming personal. The common "mine is better than yours" analogy always seems to inflame both sides...
We've seen great companies with fine handguns like Colt and Dan Wesson dissolve in the past. Can anyone imagine what the current handgun world would be like without Smith & Wesson in it? I can and I fear some would love to see that happen.
Just sayin'
RightArm
Member
I only own semis, but have been considering looking into SW revolvers for my next purchase. This thread makes me want a revolver right now. There are plenty of problems with semis I have learned to fix them myself, with plenty of help from this forum and other links. It occurs to me that when buying older guns, only the non-flawed have survived.
sqhead
US Veteran
I'm like alot of the guys on here.It's not that I don't like the new smiths,but I like the hunt,look's and prices of the older smith's better.I like the grips,boxes,tool's,even the vapor paper alot more.
My tastes have changed,but have settled in on smith 22 cal.,and j-frames,and of course the k-frame 22's.............the post's here have been great and I'm happy to be a part of this forum,It's always a learning experience.
My tastes have changed,but have settled in on smith 22 cal.,and j-frames,and of course the k-frame 22's.............the post's here have been great and I'm happy to be a part of this forum,It's always a learning experience.
If the manufacturer doesn't make what the customer wants, they will eventually go out of business. Look at the Chevy Volt, no one wants them, production has been stopped.
I bought my first new Smith & Wesson revolver in 1975. Since then, I have had many and hope to have been many more. I refuse to buy one that has the lock, that's my choice and I have my reasons for this.
Pointblank2U
US Veteran
Junk is Junk. It's not the same company anymore. If you want to buy overpriced guns that break or parts fall off, be my guest. I'll stick with the old stock.
I have a 28-2 from '76; also a Ruger Service Six from that same year. The workmanship (fit and finish) on both is superior to current offerings from each company. That said, I have several new Rugers and about a dozen late model Smiths.
I had only 2 issues, a bad cylinder on a JM 625 and Smith replaced it no questions asked in a couple of weeks. I have no complaints with their service. I also had a short FP on a 329NG which I replaced myself.
I just bought a pair of 500's, 8.375" and 4" barrels. They are well made and solid. I enjoy my revolvers more than most of my autos.
I am happy with the products produced today.
I had only 2 issues, a bad cylinder on a JM 625 and Smith replaced it no questions asked in a couple of weeks. I have no complaints with their service. I also had a short FP on a 329NG which I replaced myself.
I just bought a pair of 500's, 8.375" and 4" barrels. They are well made and solid. I enjoy my revolvers more than most of my autos.
I am happy with the products produced today.
FotoTomas
Member
I am getting on in years and remember fondly the old guns from the 70's and on and I too abhor the lock and the frame styling changes that resulted. As such those models do not appeal to me. I do however often advocate for some newer shooters to look at the current offerings and have had several purchase revolvers for sport or personal defense. My older models meet my needs and I am not looking for any more at present. Still recommend the brand however even with the lock.
As a side note...over the years I have seen a lot of change in the various tools and toys I collect. I miss some of them but realize I am a lot better off today than yesterday. As much as I love my old Leica M2, Pentax Spotmatic and Nikon Ftn cameras the Canon EOS 5D MarkII has them beat in spades both in quality, capability and being way too expensive. That is progress I guess.
As a side note...over the years I have seen a lot of change in the various tools and toys I collect. I miss some of them but realize I am a lot better off today than yesterday. As much as I love my old Leica M2, Pentax Spotmatic and Nikon Ftn cameras the Canon EOS 5D MarkII has them beat in spades both in quality, capability and being way too expensive. That is progress I guess.
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