J-Frame Not Holding Single-Action Cocking

[wrangler5]

I've got the original springs back in it, and it is back together the way it came, and it's still malfunctioning. What it's doing now is different - I'll put a cylinder through it - no problem. Reload, get two more shots off and on the 3rd shot, the trigger moves and rotates the cylinder, but does not cock and release the hammer. Opening and closing the cylinder then seems to reset it, though not always. It seems like the shock of firing it a few times knocks something out of whack.

I don't claim to be a gunsmith, but I have taken a few sideplates off and studied the mechanisms. If the trigger will unlock and rotate the cylinder but not cock the hammer, it sounds like the double action sear isn't (reliably) popping out after the trigger slides down over it while moving to its forward position after a shot. (The double action sear is the spring loaded bar in the front of the hammer, that the top back tip of the trigger engages to cock the hammer when you work the mechanism double action. It is spring loaded so it can move back to let the trigger pass by after the hammer has fallen, and the sear then pops back forward for the trigger to catch for the next shot.)

That's still something for S&W to look at, but may be nothing more than a piece of crud blocking its free movement. You can take a look at the workings of the action with the side plate off, and if you see the double action sear sticking then you know what the problem is. (Of course if it doesn't fail while you're looking at it, that doesn't mean that it isn't the problem, just that it's not happening when you're looking at it. Like the car that won't squeak when you take it to the dealer to get the squeak fixed.)

 

[buck460XVR]

Send it in to S&W and hope like 'ell they don't realize you were inside messin' with things.

 

[airman]

My 60-4 shoots unbelievably well. But I opened it anyway and shined up the return block and its track. The next time I opened it I lost the return spring and had to order a set of Wolff springs. I chose the 14 pound spring and the gun works sweetly. I don't know if the return is slowed or not, I'm not ever going to be fast enough to tell.

The hammer and sear are a fine-tuning thing to be done by a smith with patience and good eyesight. I'm not ever going there.

 

[fxdrider]

Was there any stoning/polishing done inside when the springs were installed? I always do some polishing inside when replacing the springs, but stay away from the sear unless really necessary. A bad angle on the sear and it will fall on single action.

No stoning, polishing, grinding, etc. Just the hammer spring and the trigger/rebound spring. I've done this on every revolver, both double and single action, that I've ever owned with nothing but positive results.

Replacing the rebound and main spring should not cause the problem that you described. I have used reduced tension springs in my S&W revolvers for many years and not had any problems.

That's what I figured. It's really not difficult to do if you're mechanically inclined. I even took several photos for comparison of the mechanism with the side plate off before I touched any of the inner workings. It went back together the way it came apart.

I do wish we'd taken it to the range and actually fired it before I installed the lighter springs. If the problem had presented itself then, then we'd know it wasn't because of lighter weight springs - because there wouldn't be any. We dry fired it a bit - not excessively. Never had a problem there, but even now - once it starts working we won't have another failure while dry firing - it's always after firing live rounds.

Send it in to S&W and hope like 'ell they don't realize you were inside messin' with things.

Well, if they do then they do. I just want the gun reliable. If they charge me for it, oh well. Live and learn I guess. Trust me, this isn't the only Smith out there with lighter springs installed. Most of them work just fine.

Unfortunately, my wife can barely operate the gun with the stock weight springs - not reliably enough to stake your life on it. She's 4' 11"" and 95 lbs. soaking wet. Not enough oomph there to work that stiff double-action trigger when the nasty stuff hits the fan. I was able to work miracles with the trigger on her Taurus 85, and it's been utterly reliable. I've installed lighter springs in my Ruger GP-100, and well as my Vaquero and Blackhawk with wonderful results. I guess the Smith is a different animal. I'm hoping it's something as simple as a piece of crud in there that I'm just not seeing. I'd really like to get this gun running right for her.

 

[BSA]

Send it in to S&W and hope like 'ell they don't realize you were inside messin' with things.

+1.

From your posts it seems clear that the problems you are having are a result of your "gunsmithing" efforts.

The first thing you need to do is to quit screwing around with the gun.

The second thing is put it back in the box, tape it shut and put it on a shelf somewhere.

Contact S&W for shipping label and return the gun to them.

And as Buck said is hope S&W don't notice the bugged up screws and internal parts and fix the gun for free (which they likely will anyway).

Finally if your wife is happy with the Taurus what is the purpose in changing guns?

 

[fxdrider]

Finally if your wife is happy with the Taurus what is the purpose in changing guns?

The Taurus has a bit longer barrel, and so is a tad less concealable. Also, the Smith is an airweight, whereas the Taurus has an all-steel frame - therefore the Smith has the advantage for carry.

Plus, the Smith has a pink grip. No kidding. I really don't think she can walk past a pink item without purchasing it.

And finally, there's the venerable "Smith & Wesson" name. They're generally thought of as the creme de la creme of revolvers. We figured that if her inexpensive Taurus was good, the more expensive Smith with its reputation for quality would be better.

Apparently, at least in the case of this gun, not so much.

I know several guys who compete in USPSA Revolver Competitions with S&W revolvers - they swear by them in a sport where reliability is second only to safety in importance. And believe me when I tell you these Smiths have been heavily modified, including lighter springs. Naturally I assumed if their guns were reliable with lighter springs, why wouldn't my wife's little J-frame respond the same? If it does come down to this gun not being able to run without the heavy stock springs installed, then we'll have to sell it - because as I said, she can't reliably pull the heavy double-action trigger on this thing. And I'm not going to carry it....it's got PINK grips!

hope S&W don't notice the bugged up screws and internal parts and fix the gun for free (which they likely will anyway).

I must say I'm a bit confused. To what "bugged up screws and internal parts" are you referring? I did not damage any screws or internal parts. And, the internal parts that I removed to change the springs went back in exactly as they came out.

 

[BSA]

It is usually not very difficult to tell when the sideplate has been removed. Unless you used the proper fitting screwdrivers expressly made for S&W's the slots will show deformation however slight. In addition the internal parts will show where they they where removed unless you once again you used the proper tools designed for that purpose by S&W.

Once you know what to look for as S&W tech does dozens (hundred) a week it is not difficult.

 

[fxdrider]

It is usually not very difficult to tell when the sideplate has been removed. Unless you used the proper fitting screwdrivers expressly made for S&W's the slots will show deformation however slight. In addition the internal parts will show where they they where removed unless you once again you used the proper tools designed for that purpose by S&W.

Once you know what to look for as S&W tech does dozens (hundred) a week it is not difficult.

Ooookay. It will probably be even less difficult for them to tell once I tell them I've replaced the springs.

I hope I didn't give the impression I was going to try and conceal something or put one over on good ole S&W. I'll be straight up front about it. If they are generous enough to work on it and not charge me, great! They'll have a grateful customer. If they chose to charge me for the work instead, so be it - I get it. I won't be mad at all. Like I said, I just want the gun to work. If it turns out that it can't work with a lighter trigger pull, then we'll just have to sell it and get something that's not so persnickety.

 

[OldChief]

I'll lay odds that Smith will replace either the hammer or trigger or both. The problem, I believe, lies with the cocking notch on the hammer or the trigger bevel or both. Since it's a new firearm, one or both may be broken. I can't believe that one was worn so quickly. We can all make educated guesses of the cause but I'd have to have the revolver in my hand with the side plate off and see how each part interacts with the other. Anyway, you did just what I would have done. Send it back to Smith and make use of the warranty.

 

[JAREDSHS]

since this all happened over 4 years ago I wonder how it turned out???

 

[kaaskop49]

since this all happened over 4 years ago I wonder how it turned out???

Good question! Don't you wish you had a buck for every time a poster involved us all in his odyssey and left us hanging?

I have found that loose sideplate screws can result in the cylinder rotating and the hammer stationary when the trigger is pulled.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[photoman]

Good question! Don't you wish you had a buck for every time a poster involved us all in his odyssey and left us hanging?

We would all be rich!

 

[RobertoDeNuevoMexico]

I have the same problem with a brand new Model 60 Pro 3" barrel but I haven't done anything to it except put 200 rounds through it. At first it was fine but after 120 rounds it wouldn't hold the hammer cocked in single action.

Did he ever figure out the problem?

 

[lefty_jake]

RobertoDeNuevoMexico, your gun needs to go back to the factory for warranty service. Give them a call, and they will send you a free FedEX label. The whole thing won't cost you anything, and it won't take too long.

We do not know the end result for the earlier posters, but I expect the factory fixed them up just fine. I think what you may really want to know is "Are there any simple causes for this issue which I could fix very easily?" And the answer is "not really." In some cases, a gunsmith can fix push off quite easily, but the problem you described should not happen to a new gun. And it is not a problem that could be caused by a loose screw or something that just needs a little oil.

If you have access to someone very knowledgeable about revolvers, it never hurts to have that person examine the gun. But if you don't have anyone to examine it for you, then your issue certainly warrants sending it in.

 

[fxdrider]

Soooo......

This follow-up reply has been a long time coming.(7 1/2 years!) We sent the gun in to S&W with a description of the problem and all of the surrounding circumstances. As I recall, we received the gun back about 3 weeks later with a list of items repaired/replaced. They are as follows:

Repaired: Replace Hand.
Repaired: Repair Lock.


And that's all it said. They did not charge us for the visit. We have had no problems with it since then. The Mrs. takes it to the range and shoots it along with our other guns, and over the years she's put probably 400 rounds through it. She was, understandably, hesistant to carry it for a while after the trouble she'd had with it. But after a year or so went by with no further issues she began using it as a CCW.

 

[riverrat38]

fxdrider
I'am curious if she is using the original or reduced power springs.
It is obvious that the lighter springs were not the problem. Probably why S&W didn't make a point about changing them.

Best,
Rick

 

[fxdrider]

fxdrider
I'am curious if she is using the original or reduced power springs.
It is obvious that the lighter springs were not the problem. Probably why S&W didn't make a point about changing them.

Best,
Rick

After using it at the range enough to where it seemed like the problem had been fixed, I reinstalled the reduced power hammer spring. We then used it over several more months without any failures before she felt comfortable carrying it. We left the factory "rebound" spring in it, as the reduced power ones had a negative effect on trigger return - made it not return as quickly as it should when firing rapidly.

She's happy with it. It's a great little carry gun. Amazingly concealable and so light you barely know it's there. Thankfully, she has not been called upon to use it in a defensive fashion. I hope and pray neither of us are ever in that situation.