J-Frame Vise Inserts and Other Help Needed

[Teddy Bear Rat]

I just purchased a no-dash 63 from which I plan to remove the barrel and install a Hart barrel blank, probably finishing it to a compact 3" barrel length (Relax, I will be able to put it back to its original state if I'm careful...and that's why I'm posting my first thread here). The intent is to have all the desirable features of the original 6-shot 63 design and aesthetics but with the handier, and probably higher quality, 3" barrel. I don't really like the current M63 internal locks, the way the presence of the lock changes the frame lines, the non-circular extractor star, the MIM parts, the plastic front sights, and the enclosed ejector rod, hence I will be modifying a vintage 63. I have a gunsmithing background and could probably figure some of these questions out by myself, but I would really prefer learning from someone who has done this before.

Question #1: Does anyone make inserts for S&W J-Frames? I have checked Brownells and other potential sources to no avail. It seems like they just don't exist off the shelf.

Question #2: If inserts are unavailable, what have others done to make vise inserts and barrel wrenches for J-frames?

Question #3: I've removed S&W barrels in the past, and it went well enough, but never a J-frame, and never a stainless steel barrel. How tightly torqued are the J-frames, and do the stainless threads tend to gall?

FWIW, I plan to install the Hart blank (it's about 8" long) and leave it full diameter and at that length, then experiment by progressively shortening the barrel to about 3", depending on the results, and finally contouring the barrel to emulate either the original 63 contour and shape, or possibly another, slimmer shape, like the older Outdoorsman-like contour.

Thanks in advance for any insights you might have.

TBR

 

[Bill In Texas]

Welcome to the Neighborhood! I'd sure like to see some pics when you are done with it!

 

[linde]

I'm going to suggest to the Moderators to move this thread to the Smithing section where you're more apt to find the knowledgeable folks with the answers to your questions.

Good luck,

Russ

 

[Teddy Bear Rat]

My bad. I didn't even look at the category in which I posted the thread. Much appreciated.

BTW, I did order a block of Delrin, thinking I will just replicate the various inserts made for the K-frames but on a smaller scale. I will post pics...if everything goes well. If not, I'll just fade away into the landscape .

 

[Protocall_Design]

Delrin, or Acetal, is wonderful stuff. I use it a lot. It'll work fine for this application. I have never seen ones for J frame. Looks like a DIY project, but not too difficult.

 

[Teddy Bear Rat]

A couple of hours freed up for me Saturday, so I managed to get something done on this. I have found that if I have everything ready to go in advance, just like having my range bag stocked and ready to go to the range, I can get out and make progress when the chance presents itself.

I had ordered the drills, tap, and a 36" long, 1"x1" 6061 aluminum bar for making into a barrel wrench for removing the 63 barrel, so I was ready to go. I lopped off a small 8" piece from the end of the long bar and drilled three holes through the short and long pieces simultaneously (to ensure they all line up properly) using a "F" drill bit, the appropriate size for a 5/16"x18 tap. I then opened up the holes on the shorter piece just large enough to allow passage of 5/16" cap screws. I then just tapped the three holes in the main bar. The purpose of three holes is to allow the use of two types of jaws of differing configuration, one for the current 63 barrel ,and also one for the round Hart barrel.

The 63 barrel is tapered but features that convenient rib on the top. I simply machined a round-bottom trough just deep enough for the flat shoulder to mate with the flat side of the barrel rib, to achieve maximum purchase when removing and torquing the barrel. A 5/8" ball-end mill was just about perfect for this.

The Hart barrel is still a true cylinder, with no shoulder, about .875" in diameter, so a 7/8" ball end mill was used for its jaw, but I milled it much deeper to again allow as much bite as possible:

Here it is clamped firmly onto the original 63 barrel as close to the frame as possible:

Next, I made some card stock templates, ala, J.M. Browning, for the right and left sides of the petite J- Frame to use as a pattern for the Delrin inserts:

So, hopefully, sometime soon, I'll scribe the outlines onto the Delrin blocks, cut them out, and fit them to the actual frame. There's probably enough flex and elasticity in the Delrin to form fit to the frame without meticulous fitting, but I'd like to get the fit as precise as possible to avoid any avoidable strain on the frame when removing and torquing the barrels.


TBR

 

[Teddy Bear Rat]

Someone expressed concerned about frame distortion, and I am a bit concerned,as well, but the plan is to dose the barrel threads with penetrating oil and allow it to stand for 24 hours. I plan to then support the frame as firmly and completely as possible with closely fitting Delrin vise inserts to distribute the torque forces over the entire frame; no point loading. I guess we'll know if that is enough here in a couple of days.

By the way, I received my 11-degree forcing cone reamer yesterday, so all is now in hand and ready to go:

TBR

 

[Protocall_Design]

You are going about it the right way. If you want to check frame alignment, you can make a piece to go on the forcing cone shank in place of the cutter. It can be a pointed indicator, or a round piece the size of the cartridge rim. Put the shank through the barrel and see if the tip lines up with the center of the cartridge. It's a bit easier on centerfire guns.

 

[steelslaver]

I made my frame wrench inserts in a manner similar to you. My wrench itself is made from angle iron, 2 pieces that clamp together with 1/4 20 bolts and hold the inserts tight to the frame. One piece of angle has a piece of round stock welded to it for a handle. Its ugly but works well. I use oak blocks to clamp my barrels.

I have made a ejector rod lug using a piece of square stock, drilling it for the spring and lug, then using a end mill to make a slot for it in the bottom of the barrel and silver soldering it in place.

I have done a few stainless barrels with no problem. They are some type of 400 series stainless and I don't think it galls like 300 series can. But, I understand your concern. Once stainless starts to gall it goes south fast.

 

[Teddy Bear Rat]

It Worked!

It almost seems silly to spend 5 hours making a barrel wrench and vise jaws just for one or two whacks with a 3-pound sledge, but that's how it played out. Of course, I will be using them for installing and removing the barrel during various stages of experimentation and completion, and I feel this abundance of caution has no doubt paid dividends on the project.

I have to say the barrel was very, very tight, and I believe had I not taken every precaution to distribute the strain of removal over as much of the surface of the frame as possible, it may have bent or cracked it. FWIW, even after it broke loose, it was still quite tight for about the first 1/4 turn (about .007" with the J-frame 36 TPI) then loosened up to the point I could turn it out by hand, so I'll use that as a benchmark when installing the new barrel. I'm guessing it will be a chore to achieve the same torque, at least while the barrel is still just round, since there are no shoulders against which one can apply force. This is also a lesson to any aspiring gunsmiths out there: never get in a hurry, and always use, or make, if necessary, the right tools for the job.

I'm also pleased to say there is not a new mark on the barrel or the frame, and, as you can see, the crane/yoke fit looks just like it did before the removal, so I doubt I did any damage.

There are no signs of galling on the stainless threads, despite the concern there, and they were completely covered with a thin coat of oil, so the Kroil did its job, but the face of the frame has a bit of galling at the 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock position from the initial torquing S&W did. Even the barrel shoulder was splayed slightly. For those worried about the lack of a cross pin in the later 63s, no worries! I'll let the pics tell the story:

On the cylinder gap, this 63 had a .004" gap, likely the very minimum for a dirty .22 RF, but I plan to make the barrel tenon exactly the same length as the original barrel. This way, figuring maybe .001" crush of the new Hart barrel will result in a .003" cylinder gap. I guess we'll see if .004" is, in fact, the threshold.

Now the fun begins! The wife just told me she has choir practice this evening. Threading and fitting might happen tonight .

Any opinions on firing this little .22 without the ejector rod detent in place?
TBR

 

[Teddy Bear Rat]

I made my frame wrench inserts in a manner similar to you. My wrench itself is made from angle iron, 2 pieces that clamp together with 1/4 20 bolts and hold the inserts tight to the frame. One piece of angle has a piece of round stock welded to it for a handle. Its ugly but works well. I use oak blocks to clamp my barrels.

I have made a ejector rod lug using a piece of square stock, drilling it for the spring and lug, then using a end mill to make a slot for it in the bottom of the barrel and silver soldering it in place.

I have done a few stainless barrels with no problem. They are some type of 400 series stainless and I don't think it galls like 300 series can. But, I understand your concern. Once stainless starts to gall it goes south fast.

Thanks for the information. This Hart barrel has just barely enough diameter to allow an integral ejector rod lug...barely.

As I contemplate all the details, a number of interesting options emerge. I could leave the bull barrel on there, or perhaps just shorten it just enough to continue to allow use of the barrel-mounted 4x Leupold, but that departs from my original plan of a handy 63. I also thought about maybe a longer thin barrel that emulates the lines of the old K-frame Outdoorsman barrels, but more petite. That one still intrigues me. The problem of turning the barrel down to a gracefully tapered contour, while leaving material on it to allow for an integral ejector rod detent on the bottom of the barrel, is a bit daunting, however…not that I can't do it with great effort, along with an integral front sight, but I'm not sure I want to go to that much work. That option also is inconsistent with my handy 63 goal.

Then, I got a better idea. Forming the integral front sight and ejector rod detent lug would be greatly simplified if I went with no taper and octagoned the barrel. If I stick with the 3" barrel plan, it's not really that much machining to octagon it while leaving and shaping the material for the front sight and rod detent lug...so, that's what I think I'm going to do.

Tonight's the night.

 

[Protocall_Design]

You don't really need the front of the ejector rod supported. I've shot guns in competition for years with the ejector rod out in the air. The barrel is better off if not tightened so tight. Just hand tight with some blue Loctite is better for the barrel.

 

[steelslaver]

It sounds tome like the barrel was on the tight side. Usually they break loose and start turning shortly there after, but the galling on the frame shoulder might have caused some of it.

Making a contoured barrel with integral rib, ramp and sight would take some corner rounding mills and time.

 

[Teddy Bear Rat]

Update

It sounds tome like the barrel was on the tight side. Usually they break loose and start turning shortly there after, but the galling on the frame shoulder might have caused some of it.

Making a contoured barrel with integral rib, ramp and sight would take some corner rounding mills and time.

I would add a lot of time, and some fixtures I don't have. I did get out in the garage last night with good results.

I've always subscribed to the old adage of measuring twice and cutting once, but that was for making cutting boards in middle school woodshop. As a gunsmith, measuring 5 times and cutting once has served me better, and, in this case, I measured 10 or 15 times and cut once.

I know most of the audience here are just revolver fans, not rimfire enthusiasts, but slugging a rimfire bore to assess its accuracy potential, and especially finding the all-important tight spot in the bore, is very important in rimfire rifle accuracy. I don't know that it matters in a revolver with 6 chambers, a cylinder gap, and a forcing cone, but I wanted to give this revolver the chance to be as accurate as a J-frame can possibly be.

So, I slugged and slugged the bore of the Hart barrel section using lubricated slugs harvested from match .22 ammunition and, the more I slugged, the more convinced I became that the "choke" in this blank was longer than I had believed from initial slugging, although the release point was very consistently in the same spot. I think the choked portion is about 1.25" long, instead of about 1/2", as I previously assumed.

As mentioned, my intent was to experiment a bit with barrel length using a 4X Leupold handgun scope I just purchased for the purpose. Experimentation with various barrel lengths (8" to 6" to 4") would not be possible, however, with a distinct, relatively short choke, as I would need to re-cut the barrel from the breech, recutting the tenon threads each time I shortened the barrel, something I didn't really want to do. Yet, with this longer choked portion, I decided I could cut it to the original 4", long enough to mount the Leupold for group shooting, then cut the muzzle back about 3/4" to 1" and just re-cut the crown and still be in the tight sweet spot. So, that's what I did and plan to do.

I've always found it useful to know the weight of the respective components while everything is apart:

Even the light little Leupold overwhelms the petite J Frame. You can see it would be a challenge to mount this scope on a 3" barrel without making some "skinny" scope rings, which is why I opted to start with the 4" length:

So, if I have time tonight, I will cut the forcing cone, torque the barrel in place, scribe a witness mark, assess the resulting cylinder gap, and start relieving the bottom of the barrel for ejector rod clearance. I will also need to relieve the bottom of the barrel tenon for the crane. Getting that far will allow me to shoot it and adjust the cylinder gap, if necessary. Then I'll need to either cut some dovetail grooves in the barrel for direct scope ring mounting, my preferred method, or drill and tap it for conventional bases. Either will need to be shallow enough to disappear when I finally octagon the barrel.

On the ejector rod lug, every S&W revolver I've owned had considerable play in the ejector rod, and I never really thought the ejector rod detent played much of a role in tight cylinder lock up, but I feel better having some means of securing the rod, instead of it just flopping around out there. I also appreciate the comments on shooting these revolvers extensively without a secured rod. Eventually, after I octagon the barrel, I will fit the detent, spring, and pin into the integral lug.

Again, the plan is to octagon the barrel, leaving the size about .600" across the points, and also machine the under lug and and front sight ramp integrally. As always, my projects tend to sprout legs and wander a bit. Now part of me is saying a 4" octagon will look better than a 3" octagon. Just don't know. We'll see, but my original intent was a handy 3" M63 on the older 6-shot, no internal lock platform.

I welcome any thoughts or comments.

TBR

 

[Protocall_Design]

Nice project, regardless of how it ends up. Thanks for taking us along for the ride!

 

[Teddy Bear Rat]

More Progress

My work schedule usually won't allow me to string two good work-in-the-garage days together, but I was able to get in 3 in 4 days. Very therapeutic!

I gently stoned the face of the frame, where there was a bit of galling, and doing so resulted in the barrel hand tightening about 1/16 of a turn more, or about .002". I then torqued the barrel about as much as I felt comfortable doing, this time using the larger wrench cut outs for the round barrel. It worked well enough, and it didn't slip at all, but the bolts were binding up in the non-threaded holes, so I didn't have a good feel for how tight the wrench was actually getting. I'll need to open up them a bit.

Then, I simply mounted the barrel and frame so that the frame was perfectly perpendicular in the mill vise, and machined the ejector rod clearance. The Hart stainless machined quite crisply, although the 400-series stainless steels are not nearly as sticky to machine as the low-carbon 300-series. There was plenty of clearance on the original, may be too much, and I thought about tightening up the gap a bit but decided against it...really nothing to be gained there, and I wanted to be certain it would function the first time, since I really didn't want to chuck and true everything up again.

You can see I left a .004"-.005" sliver of barrel, not wanting to kiss the frame with the carbide mill, then broke it off and stoned the corner:

Then, I cut the forcing cone..about a minute's work. Great Brownell's tool, by the way. Was not sure how deep to go, so, again, I just replicated the original cone depth:

Done:

The barrel lost less than one ounce from that machining; 10.2 vs 9.4:

I then re-installed the barrel, using a Dykem witness mark, and the cylinder gap did tighten to .003", just like I had hoped. If it binds when it fouls, I'll just remove a .001" and be back to its original gap.

I was tempted to drill the ER detent hole while I had the barrel off, but realized I would need some pretty long drill bits of the proper size, which I did not have. I was also tempted to machine some quick dovetail grooves for mounting the scope right to the barrel, but I was running out of time and wanted to think more about how to do it. I've used Talley rimfire rings in the past, so I'll probably thin down a pair of those about .200" each, to gain mounting space, and mount them properly.

Then, it occurred to me, "What if this thing tack-holes 1/4"-1/2" groups at 25 yards?" I've done about every rimfire trick in the book, and that Hart barrel was smooth as glass when I slugged it...it now has every chance to shoot great. If it does shoot like I hope (I think I hope that it will), it would be very tempting to leave it as is. Do I want it to shoot poorly, so I can proceed with the shorter octagon barrel...or not? That would kind of derail my original intent of a compact 3" old-school 63...but I might have the most accurate 63 in the world. I guess it would be a very good problem to have. Enjoy:

Looks like I'm just about 4.5 ounces over original weight, but I must say, it does hang amazingly well in the hand:

So, I can shoot it now, but there are no sights. Range time is as precious as garage time, so maybe I should just mount my scope tomorrow and get to the range Saturday...If it does shoot really well, I will be very glad I machined it properly for a scope, instead of just drilling and tapping a bunch of holes for an ugly rail.

TBR

 

[Protocall_Design]

When you cut the bottom of the barrel to clear the ejector rod, you want to keep the gap between them fairly small so the back of the barrel can support the top front of the crane when it's closed. Should be a shooter!

 

[steelslaver]

Some of my projects end up a bit different from the original idea. Might change desires as the work progresses, run into a problem or comeup with a "better" idea as I progress.

Looks like your doing some fine work. I have always worried about drilling the smaller diameter hole in the ejector lug with a long thin bit. I know it can be done, but stuff like that always makes me nervous.

 

[Teddy Bear Rat]

Nervous indeed! I always try to start drilling holes with a stiffer center drill, to minimize tip wandering, but the one I have that is small enough is too short by about .750", and I'm not sure I could locate a longer one; a long spindly center drill kind of defeats the purpose of a stiff center drill. It's worth looking though.

TBR

 

[Protocall_Design]

You can get most sizes of center or spot drills in 4 and 6 inch lengths from the normal metalworking suppliers.