J-Frames and + P Ammunition

[StarchedCover]

I have two older J-Frames one a M-36 (68-69 mfg.) and a M36-1 w/ a 3" barrel and I am curious if they will be damaged if I shoot a few cylinders of +P at the end of a range session?

The reason I ask as I have come into a sizeable amount of WW Ranger 130 gr. + P HP that I'd like to use as carry ammunition.

These guns are normally fed 4.5 Gr. of Unique and a 158 gr. LSWC or WWB 130 gr. Ball. I thought might start carrying the M36 as it's warming up and a smaller lighter CCW is not a bad thing and I wanted to use the Ranger 130 Gr. + P HP as a carry load.

Just don't to damage a couple of nice old guns.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

StarchedCover

 

[armorer951]

This topic gets revisited about once a week. In a search, I found the following:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/195777-plus-p-38-special-older-guns.html

smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/183243-using-p-ammo-model-36-a.html

smith-wessonforum.com/.../122791-38-special-plus-p-question.html

 

[Alk8944]

This topic gets revisited about once a week. In a search, I found the following:

More like once or twice a day if you count all the "Can I shoot +P in my................" posts!

 

[StarchedCover]

Armorer951,
Thanks for the links.

Seems like the consensus is that the occasional +P won't do any harm in my older J-Frames.

Thanks again.

StarchedCover

 

[armorer951]

While it is probably "safe" to do so, (and it's your gun) because of the lack of any meaningful ballistic gain from the increased pressures, particularly in a short barrel configuration...... and the negative effect in terms of increased wear and tear on the gun and components, I never use +P rated ammo in any of my J-frame revolvers.....the old ones or the new ones. (armorer's perspective)

From the S&W revolver Owner's Manual......

"“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the pres-
sures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect
the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into some
revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS."

It also mentions only using ammunition in the gun that corresponds with the caliber marked on the revolver's barrel.

 

[ispcapt]

My early 1970s Model 49 has documented rd count of just under 5500 rds of 158 gr +P. It's got a bit of cylinder play but nothing that affects reliability or accuracy. If you just checked just that 49 you might not even pay attention to the play but when compared to a new gun you can tell there's some. I've seen new guns with as much play.
That's just 1 gun. Doesn't mean another 49 would go that many rds or maybe go even more without the play. It's not something I would worry about in a steel frame gun. It's not likely you're going to be shooting a whole lot of +P.

 

[redlevel]

I have a 36 from the early 70s. I know I have fired at least 500 rounds of +p. I bought a 500 round case of +p specifically for that gun, and it's gone. I figure I have fired at least another five hundred rounds. As ispcapt said, the only thing evidence is a slight amount of cylinder play. I still carry Buffalo Bore heavy +p in it.

 

[Jim NNN]

It's kind of like driving your car on the highway at 100 mph vs. 60 mph. It will wear it out faster with faster speeds, but not in the short term (most likely.) This,of course, only applies with guns in good working order.

A lot of us are hesitant to tell owners to disregard manufacturers' recommendations, as it's not really a good policy to do that, generally speaking, but with +P in .38, it seems that there's enough margin of error built into this recommendation to follow it a rule of thumb, as opposed to strict doctrine. And keep in mind, were talking about this with regards to Smith and Wesson J frames, not saturday night specials.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

My personal policy is to shoot J-frames as little as possible. I still carry them sometimes, I don't use +P ammo in them, but if you do just remember that they kick like mules and that could be a distraction in a self defense situation. Recoil is your friend.......up to a point.

 

[sheepdawg]

Quite a few people think that today's +P has been watered down some and it's pretty much the same as the regular 38 special from when your revolver was made.

 

[Art Doc]

Shooting with Hobie

 

[calmex]

Shooting with Hobie

I read that, it's a good article.

 

[Rick_A]

The standard answer from S&W is that if it has a model number, it's fine.

It's a slightly higher pressure, not a frame stretching fire breathing hand/wrist shattering monster.

More power is more power. If you can shoot it well, may as well use it. It's a little more fun in most guns.

17,000 psi vs 20,000 (17%).

 

[two-bit cowboy]

I simply can't resist...

If you want to shoot .22 magnums, buy a .22 magnum revolver.

If you want to shoot .44 magnums, don't buy a .44 special revolver.

I will never understand the "I want to push my gun further than was intended" concept. Buy a gun that will pump out the ammo you want to shoot. Seems bloody elementary to me.

No apologies; no excuses.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Tom_R]

What is the best +P Bear Load to shoot from my J-Frame/Trail Gun?

I am looking for Black Bear Recommendations, but would like to know if it can step up to Browns/Grizzlies/Kodiaks

 

[KML]

Shooting with Hobie

This is all you need to read.

 

[Skeetr57]

I have some problems with the linked article. First, the change from measuring velocities from a one piece barrel to the current method of measuring from barrels with a gap to more accurately match revolvers accounts for some velocity variations, and the length of the test barrel needs to be known, If my memory serves, some of those old test barrels were 10" long. Also, Speer apparently didn't have pressure measuring equipment when they gathered the data for manual #8 since it does not list pressures. I loaded and shot a good many of the loads using 110gr Hornaday JHPbullets and 10gr of IMR 4756 powder, most of them through a S&W Mod 67, until I got a copy of DuPont's loading data sheets that did list pressures, and found that that load exceeded .357 Magnum pressures even when loaded in .357 length cases. If you check Speer manual #9, it does not list any loads in .38 Special with any amount of IMR 4756. Using extraction effort to determine pressure is not reliable in older S&W revolvers because S&W used three reamers for the chambers, the last reamer being a burnishing reamer that did not remove metal, but rather just "ironed" it to a better finish than a finish reamer or polishing with abrasives. Those Speer #8 loads that would fall from a S&W cylinder would stick in a Ruger cylinder of the same period.

 

[haywood]

I sight my guns in wth +P. Practice with standard. I carry +P. Never had a problem. Going on 40 years doing this.

 

[da gimp]

Shooting with Hobie

very nice article with good documentation... & heck that is a nice web site too... I just gleaned a lot on the Browning BLR too while I was there. Thanks again SP.

 

[les.b]

Well, I'm glad we settled that. Again. Well, almost. I may tend to be conservative in my choice of ammunition in a particular firearm, but I have a lot of them to choose from. I feel pretty secure firing a .38 spl. +P from a J frame magnum. I also have other J frames, including a very nice 'Baby Chief'. Would I shoot +Ps through it? No, even if it might be safe, and not harm the gun, why risk it? There are lots of new made Js rated for .357 magnum, why push an old one. Also, they are still making the new ones, there are only a fixed number of the old ones in existence, and will never be any more of them.

Note to SaxonPig: the above was written before I read your excellent treatise regarding the +P. I am in the process of revising my initial response. Very well written, and a lot of food for thought. Thanks for posting the link.