"Jacketed bullets accelerate barrel wear"

[smoothshooter]

That gun writers had an almost unlimited supply of ammo, and got paid to shoot (wish I had that job)...most of what was/has been written has been based off of extreme circumstances.

As a regular reloader and semi-regular shooter, I would just about bet that I could shoot jacketed bullets (I dont cuz cast is cheaper) for the rest of my shooting life (I am 43) through my 4 screw Pre-29 shooter and it would sh
ow no ill effects.

I n otherwords, the average person that has other things to do than shoot for a living would probably never wear an early gun out in their lifetime.

Relax Aaron

We should all be so fortunate as to wear out a gun barrel.
If someone can afford can afford the ammo to do that, they can afford the new barrel or gun.

 

[rwsmith]

With hard cast and coated....

With hard cast and coated bullets so available (and cheap) I don't have any reason to shoot jacketed bullets unless for a special occasion.

 

[Steve912]

I was chronoing a new batch of handloads a couple years back and my underused 4" 625 was yielding higher velocities than the old 5". I reviewed my records and found the old 625 had once been the faster gun.

The probable explanation is simply a gradual wearing down of the bore which lowers pressure and thus velocity.

How about barrel/cylinder gap changes?

 

[H Richard]

I have read more than one article over the years on Rimfire rifle competitors, and the replacement of their rifle barrels. One article years ago suggested that a rifle barrel, (Anschutz, Winchester 52, etc) should be replaced about every 6000 to 8000 rounds to maintain top accuracy. Another article touted that after about 6000 rounds they would pull the barrel, cut off the chamber end, re-chamber it and re-install and it would be good for another 6000 rounds or so. Keep in mind these were all top competitors, and the only ammo used was top of the line standard velocity.

Now I had an Anschutz match rifle, and it was vintage of 1973, and it had been used by one high school rifle team competitor for 4 years, I bought and my son used it for 4 years on the rifle team, and I used it for outdoor 100 yard prone matches. Based on 500 rounds a week for 24 weeks per year for the HS Team shooters times 4 years each equals about 96,000 rounds, and I probably put maybe 1000 rounds a year through it for 5-6 years for an estimated total of around 100,000 rounds. The last time I shot it it would still hold a 1/4" at 100 yards.

The only barrel I've ever replaced was a 22-250 Varmint barrel after about 6-7000 rounds of 55 gr. Nosler's at 3650 fps (and sometimes in rapid sequence at Prairie dogs) and the 6" in front of the chamber was toast.

My opinion is heat and velocity burn out a barrel.

 

[DWalt]

This is a ressurection of a 2009 thread, but I will provide a little information. For many years, S&W was apparently horrified by the thought of firing jacketed bullets in their revolvers due to increased barrel wear (of course, there were very few jacketed bullet revolver cartridges available in those days, so there probably wasn't much to worry about). The hot cartridges of the pre-WWII area (the .38-44 and the .357 Magnum) early on did not use full jacketed bullets, but rather metal capped bullets. This was because S&W felt that the bullet bearing surface in the bore should remain lead to preserve barrel life.

During WWII, the use of the .38 Special revolver for military purposes came to pass, and of course, FMJ bullets were a requirement for compliance with the Hague Convention for non-expanding bullet use in combat. So both the British Commonwealth and the US military ordered that military handgun ammunition use FMJ bullets. As a result, in early 1942 S&W changed the steel alloy used for Victory barrels from AISI 1025 to AISI 1045, as the latter was more wear resistant. So I suppose S&W thought it was an important step to take to maintain long barrel life.

I have to assume that modern barrel steels make modern handgun barrels largely immune to wear from jacketed bullets. For sure (because I have personal knowledge) there are many military M9 pistols which have fired hundreds of thousands of FMJ M882 rounds through them in training, with no barrel changes in all that time. Early M9 barrels did have some problems, but they did not involve barrel wear.

 

[steelslaver]

I propose more barrel "wear" is caused by powders than bullets. Notice that the handguns barrels mentioned in this thread as being worn were worse at the frame end than the muzzle. Bullet is traveling fastest at the muzzle people. Hot gasses are blasting the part nearest the chamber. Guys offer get flame cut forcing cones and frames. What makes anybody think it stops at the forcing cone ? Had a 220 swift. Accuracy fell off. Barrels erosion in front of chamber. Muzzle was fine, bullet was moving at 4200 @ muzzle, not at chamber lead. Powder scrubbing. . Which powder you run can have as much or more effect than bullet. Plus I bet it is far more likely that a lubed lead bullet has a bit of dust etc than a dry copper jacket.

 

[S&WIowegan]

How about barrel/cylinder gap changes?

I'll add some information to my original comment about my 625-2 5" barrel and it's wear. The gun was used extensively in USPSA matches over the course of approx. 15 yrs. Ammunition used was either factory jacketed hardball or comparable handloads. All ammunition was jacketed and subsonic(very modest pressure). I didn't say the barrel was worn out, just that it was losing velocity vs. original performance. This is important to USPSA shooters since we must meet required minimum velocity to maximize scores. The gun I referred to is still serviceable.

We throw around the phrase "worn out" loosely in this thread. What is the definition of "worn out"?

There is a general attitude that revolvers were all made to shoot lead bullets. Interestingly, Model 1917 revolvers were expected to shoot 230 gr hardball when they were produced.

I have no way to respond to barrel/cylinder gap changes since I have no data from when I first took the gun out of the box.

 

[DWalt]

"There is a general attitude that revolvers were all made to shoot lead bullets. Interestingly, Model 1917 revolvers were expected to shoot 230 gr hardball when they were produced."

True enough, but in 1917 there would have been very little experience in firing FMJ bullets in a revolver to know if bore wear would have been a problem or not. I can't think of any military FMJ bullets anywhere being used in revolvers at that time. Of course the German Luger and Mauser pistols were using FMJ bullets, as well as the U. S. M1911, but those were in semiautomatics, and I know nothing about their barrel metallurgy. Every Colt M1917 barrel I have seen has very light rifling. Whether they were made with very shallow grooves or resulted from firing jacked bullets in quantity I have no idea. I also have a 1920s M1911 barrel with its rifling visually in about the same condition.

 

[rwsmith]

Temperature...

I'm winging this, but the temperature in the chamber and barrel comes from two sources. The temperature of the burning of the powder and the thousands of pounds of pressure that it develops. (remember the hot bicycle pump?) Higher pressure loads generate higher temperatures, which surely leads to more rapid erosion.

Fighter plane's machine gun barrels would only be good for a few thousand rounds before they would be burned out. Even in the field with more tame ammunition, machine gun barrels have a short life.

 

[jaymoore]

I have a 686 which has had the forcing cone area roughly doubled in length after quite a bit of competition use using FMJ bullets. Still shoots well enough for DA work.

My various .44s show no signs of wear after many thousands of rounds of swaged lead using powder charges over 20 grains!

 

[rwsmith]

20 grains?

I have a 686 which has had the forcing cone area roughly doubled in length after quite a bit of competition use using FMJ bullets. Still shoots well enough for DA work.

My various .44s show no signs of wear after many thousands of rounds of swaged lead using powder charges over 20 grains!

20 grains of what powder? I shot thousands of swaged bullets through my model 10 and the dealer that sold it for me said it didn't look like it was used anywhere near that.

 

[cmansguns]

Hello Forum;

I don't know much about rifle or pistol barrel wash-out, wear, whatever you want to call it, but I do remember my time on the Army rifle team and in between matches we would sit around the arms room with a visiting Division level Master Armorer who would go through our M-14's like he was the original inventor. We would get whatever replacement or spruce up, fine tune parts he felt would give is any miniscule advantage.

What I also remember very well was the "stacks", literally stacks, awaiting large wooden crates for shipment back to CONUS, of Browning M2 .50 Cal. Machine gun barrels. Every M-113 APC had one of those guns, most trucks in a ring mount, and the Heavy Weapons Platoons, had one with tripod too. So probably thousands of barrels and I remember him saying they were so far gone they would be rendered into scrap and were just being sent back to be properly scrapped in lieu of some foreign "bad guys" getting hold of them.

Like an above poster said....at least machine gun barrels with high rates of fire (remember you dang well better have the issued hot mitt if you needed to change that M2 barrel on the fly)..........certainly do wear out.

 

[DWalt]

While they are not handguns, I have inspected many heavily used M16A2 barrels using a borescope. Even though plated, the bore walls, especially ahead of the chamber, resemble nothing so much as cracked dried-out mud in a riverbed.

 

[sikacz]

I suspect heat has a lot to do with wear. Not having a chance to cool down metal will wear faster. I don't personally shoot that fast, usually 3 seconds between shots at my fastest. I doubt I'll wear out any barrels.

 

[ken158]

I have had this conversation with my friend, 29aholic (Curtis) on the phone.

I know it hurts peoples egos to think that their beloved Smith .44 could have a flaw, but they did, and you guys are missing the point here.

Pearce was saying that the barrel steel of those particular era guns were designed for lead. I have that article and have sent it ot a lot of guys on this forum.

Pearce is about the best writer going these days, and is extremely knowledgeable about anything to do with guns. It wouldn't take a lifetime of shooting, or a gunwriters supply of ammo to wear out a barrel that was designed for lead bullets. Early .44 magnum ammo was loaded with gaschecked lead buulets. The wear issue with those guns has nothing to do with pressure. It has to do with barrel steel hardness. When Smith realized that guys were actually going to shoot their new .44's more than a box or two a year, they termpered the barrel steel to last longer.

If anyone wants that article, I can send them a PDF containing it.

I don't doubt the writer says this, but I do doubt steel being heat treated for lead rather then copper. I also question where the writer got this information... but on a high note - even if you were to shoot out a 4 screw 29 barrel, someone would still buy the gun! The Mohs hardness scale rates lead at 1.5, copper at 3 and steel at 4 - 4.5. It's not the friction of the material so it must be the heat generated by firing and primers / powder are the wear culprit.

 

[reddog81]

i could see this as being a valid concern in the 1930's or 40's but we've been firing jacketed bullets for over 100 years now. If your pistol barrel wears out before the gun does it was a manufacturing defect.

 

[Texas Star]

No one has mentioned that older (around WW I) S&W box lids said that their guns were meant for lead bullets. That does suggest that they knew even then that jacketed bullets wore barrels faster.

M-1917 barrels are rifled to handle jacketed GI .45 ammo. But the guns were meant for emergency war supplements to Colt autos,and no one was concerned that they would eventually wear more than with lead bullets.The guns would certainly long outlast the war!

How many rounds were in a case of that ammo that Elmer ordered from the Natl. Guard? How much shooting did he do? A BUNCH! I wouldn't be surprised if a "case" of ammo meant 5,000 rounds!

I've never worn a barrel and I've shot many jacketed rounds.

In rifles, with much higher velocities, we do see worn barrel throats after maybe 5,000 rounds. The small bore magnums with large case capacity wear faster than those shooting bullets at lower speeds.

Roy Weatherby said that his barrels would last as well as most hunters needed, if sighted-in and then shot mainly at live game.
Weatherby magnums are not target or plinking rifles. They are for killing animals.

 

[BigBill]

If you cut a jacketed bullet open or shoot one into wet sand it's a copper steel coated jacket. There's no way that a soft copper jacket is going to wear out a hardened steel barrel. I did a lot of wet sand ballastics testing and found out every copper coated bullet has a thin steel jacket.

Now I use moly coated leadcast bullets. I do not wash the moly out of the barrel. I run some full power jacketed bullets at the end of the shoot just to keep the feel of the full power loads. The moly eliminates wear of the forcing cone and barrel.

 

[Muley Gil]

"How many rounds were in a case of that ammo that Elmer ordered from the Natl. Guard? How much shooting did he do? A BUNCH! I wouldn't be surprised if a "case" of ammo meant 5,000 rounds!"

IIRC, a case of .45 ACP ammo was indeed 5,000 rounds.

 

[Golfswithwolves1]

The M9 I was issued to take to Afghanistan seemed to me to have a worn barrel. The first half inch or so after the forcing cone looked washed out, and the accuracy was less than I had come to expect from other M9 pistols I had shot. Of course I have no idea how many rounds had gone down the barrel before I got it!

 

[Dave T]

If you cut a jacketed bullet open or shoot one into wet sand it's a copper steel coated jacket. There's no way that a soft copper jacket is going to wear out a hardened steel barrel. I did a lot of wet sand ballastics testing and found out every copper coated bullet has a thin steel jacket.

Now I use moly coated leadcast bullets. I do not wash the moly out of the barrel. I run some full power jacketed bullets at the end of the shoot just to keep the feel of the full power loads. The moly eliminates wear of the forcing cone and barrel.

Bill,

Maybe we shot different kinds of jacketed bullets but all those I dug out of dirt banks, sand piles and even baffle boxes showed no evidence of a steel jacket under the copper jacket. I've even seen slide shows depicting the making of jacketed bullets and nothing but a copper alloy jacket with a lead core was ever shown.

YMMV,
Dave

 

[steelslaver]

If you suspect steel, try a good magnet on it. Copper is so much more malleable than steel I don't know why they would use any steel unless special application for penetration or form retention.

But, will hold to my belief that some powders are harder on a barrel than a soft copper jacket. The area right behind a bullet is a very nasty environment.

 

[BigBill]

Try to bend the jacket when you remove it from the sand. I find shooting into clean sand the jackets look and feel like shrapnel. Very tough to bend leads my to believe it's a copper coated thin steel.

 

[steelslaver]

No, it becomes work hardened copper. Working metals like copper and brass hardens them considerably. That why some people annealing their rifle brass after multiple reloads. Take that copper jacket outside, hold itin a pair of pliers and use a torch to get it red hot and drop it in water. It will become dead soft copper again. Kind of the opposite of steel which would hardening if heated red then quenched

 

[DWalt]

"Copper is so much more malleable than steel I don't know why they would use any steel unless special application for penetration or form retention."
Copper alloy coated steel is a very common bullet jacket material and has been used for military ammunition since WWI. Maybe even longer. Steel is much cheaper than copper. Much of the 150 grain .30 M2, .50 BMG, .45 ACP, and some .30 Carbine ammunition made during WWII used steel-jacketed bullets. And later, so did some 5.56mm and 7.62mm ammunition. The Lake City Product Guide shows many cartridges specified with steel-jacketed bullets.