Jesse James Schofield just sold...

[BMur]

Patent reference

Mike,
That's great stuff. Thank's for posting it and participating in the research part of the program!

Ok, it's not something that I'm suggesting? I'm just following the research without prejudice or malice.

So, following the research? The earliest patent for the Merwin NEW ARMY is actually:

December 15, 1874. D. Moore was the patent
designer. Obviously nothing happened for 2 1/2 years until the beginnings of the Army trials.

Then as a result of "Army trials" there are multiple improvements from the original D. Moore design of 1874.

March 6, 1877 D. Moore & W. A. Hulbert. 2 patents listed for the same date. That included multiple improvements to the original 1874 design.

Up to that point in time the design is still geared towards Army trials for an Army issue revolver. They even mention the improvements and recommendations during the trials.


This is the shady area....between very late 1879 to March of 1882. Prior to 1880 the gun was in production for the Army trials only and cartridges were not listed as available to the public. Even your early box has a patent date that supports this research as well.

I'm going to look up that Phoenix Arms patent on that early box of ammo. I'll let you know what I find.

I don't doubt that there was an early variation that was sold to the public. That would be the one I posted from the early broad sheet showing the 1877 design features. The early box you found likely supported early production firearms. "PRE-1882".

My guess would be right after the Army trials from the early 1880's until March of 1882 when the "Automatic Army" was introduced.

They are out there. Likely very few remain. Speculating again on my part but that early design "MUST HAVE" revealed design weaknesses early on. So the company halted production until the problem could be solved. The improved patent actually supports this theory. The patent is a focus on "strengthening" the barrel lock, operating the barrel release, and opening the loading gate. That's a lot of issues!

That's why the 1882 patent was introduced and that's why you see them in huge numbers "AFTER" that patent improvement. THEY FIXED THE PROBLEM

The timeline of the other guns in the Army trials show no patent design improvements of this magnitude after the trials. Therefore they basically had no issues to their design. The Merwin "had issues".


Murph

 

[BMur]

Phoenix Arms Multi-ball Ammo

Mike,
I just looked at your Phoenix Arms Multi-ball Ammo box?

I don't need to research this patent...That was ammo created by Merwin & Hulbert for the Army Trials....Just supports that the gun was still not out in the general public at that time.

Below are photo's of what the rounds look like inside that box you posted....Notice the date? 1879 Report from the Chief of Ordnance. The drawing is what was issued to the Chief Ordnance inspector. This was part of a very late 1879 report in December. So that takes us into 1880 timeframe. We are getting closer to that March of 1882 timeframe. It's just as likely the Army tests revealed the weaknesses in the design and Public production was halted until the problems were solved!

There is a significant benefit for a gun maker to have the U.S. Army do trial tests on your design? Even if they don't adopt the model? You still find out how tough your design is....That's a plus.

Murph

 

[iby]

Murph
Re: your patent images dated 1882.
I don't know what patent is being applied for.
But, the gun shown is a Merwin 3rd type with top strap.
I tend to agree that this shows a start date for 3rd type production.
However, the 1st and 2nd types obviously preceded the 3rd type.
All the 1st types I have observed have been chambered in 44 Merwin.
The 2nd type has been observed in 44 merwin/44 russian/ and 44wcf
the 1st type appears to be the scarcest so this may account for the dearth of ammo references available. The 2nd type ammo would have been common at the time.

 

[iby]

P.S.
I know we have shamelessly hijacked this thead, but did I mention I really like to talk about Merwins?

 

[RoyM52]

Is it totally out of any possibility That an outlaw could of gotten his hands on one and some ammo...before it was released to the general public? After all if outlawing is your game....And you want the best. Is it remotely possible?

 

[BMur]

Stolen Military Schofield?

Absolutely!

I try not to input opinion as much as possible. Referencing Ordnance records from 1903? They performed a survey of surviving Military issued revolvers in specific serial number ranges? Batches of 1000. Exampe: 1-1000, 1001-2000 etc. The average survival rate from the 1870's through the Indian wars was about 16% still accounted for!

So, what happened to the rest of the guns? Roughly 30,000 issued including Schofields? Guesstimating about 25,000 missing....Where did they go? Very Long list of possibilities there!

Quite a few were obviously lost in the field..On horseback? Rough conditions? Long hard rides? Fighting Indians? How many were Stolen? Lot's I'm sure. Guns and Gold! They are worth a lot of money!

I've been researching "Express guns" for a long time now and over the course of about 40 years the Express Companies purchased an average of 25-50 guns a month...Why? Guns don't wear out that fast. Fill in the blank.

On the flip side? The Schofield has to be in the field. It can't be recorded in factory records as still being assembled in the factory and not even shipped yet?

That's how one of the "claimed" James Gang Schofields played out. Also, The Merwin & Hulbert on Jesse James Jr wood display board. Manufactured after the death of his father?


Murph

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Hello everyone
Really very interesting discussion, especially for us, here in Italy, who have a total absence of sources. If not that of books. And of course, as well as first-hand sources and testimonies, our possibilities to access original finds are very remote! So, still remaining on the subject of ".45 S&W cartridge" what is the oldest commercial cartridge box in this caliber that you have seen? Is it possible that they were UMC Co., USC Co. or WRA Co.? None of you have a photo or have one in your collection? The oldest box I've seen, apart from the military ones, of course, is from the 1920s!
Giorgio

 

[SPEEDGUNNER]

This is a fascinating thread with a boatload of interesting information. As a student of history, although not to the impressive level and depth as some of our esteemed fellows here on the forum, I am amazed at the amount of research that has been done regarding these early cartridge guns and their manufacture, use and availability. Availability of ammunition would have most certainly dictated use, as well as availability of fairly new firearms on what was the frontier. Heck, I didn't even know Merwin and Hulbert made a pistol for the Army trials!!

Kudos to all, I am contributing nothing but encouragement and fascination that this thread keeps rolling along.

 

[BMur]

Authentic James Gang Schofield?

I was just hoping that someone would chime in here and provide some "Rock Solid" proof of a Schofield being used by the James Gang?

At this point and in my researched opinion we can't rely on Jesse James Jr with his wood display board having a proven Merwin and Hulbert 44 that was "clearly" manufactured after his fathers death. Being influenced by his Grand Mother Zerelda and her "FAKE" Jesse James guns for sale leaves one to believe that Jesse James Jr. was more like a traveling salesmen. "Yes friends" for only a nickel you can see the authentic James Gang guns from the back of my jalopy. Photo's for a dime. I'm tossing anything to do with him aside as fabricated. See another photo of his display board below. It clearly associates the guns and equipment on the board with the gang. It's not a demo board in my opinion it's a fabricated and claimed "authentic" display of the gangs guns.

The legitimate source will have to come from court records, early documents, early newspaper accounts that were recorded at the time of the event . Not later embellished stories or I'm just not a believer. Claims that date to 40 years after Jesse James death don't hold much merit from my researched perspective. Even newspaper accounts 10 years after his death are proven fabrications.

I would be willing to bet that there are court records in Northfield that document captured guns from dead outlaws and those Younger brothers who were captured after the raid. (See published photo)

That could actually be a very reliable source. However, those records logging a Schofield are very remote at best due to the date of the Raid? All the Schofields were only just being issued by the Armory. That is documented in Armory records. 1876 was the first year of issuance. So, that really is a stretch. However, its obvious that every either dead(shot up) gang member in that photo or captured Younger brother also relinquished their firearms to capture as well. Those firearms should be documented somewhere. Do those records remain is the question.

Without those early gang records It would have to come from the second Gang activities that began in late 1878 with multiple well documented robberies until the last robbery and murder of a well known and liked conductor took place in 1881. Marking the end of the ruthless James gang activities and a focused hunt by authorities to end the gang for good.

Hey Giorgio,
I think that you are correct in that UMC likely provided the first Civilian cartridges for the Schofield. My research finds their rounds are first listed in the 1880 catalog....Earlier catalogs find "NO LISTING"....This makes perfect sense since the gun was not generally available to the public at that time.

The photo of the 1881 U.S. Cartridge Co. bullet drawing from their catalog does provide rock solid proof that as I suspected, the early public manufactured rounds were "outside lubricated"....Sure wish I could find just one early round. Very hard to find!


Murph

 

[BMur]

UMC Box

Giorgio,
Here is a photo of a UMC box of 45 Black powder Schofield rounds that date to between the mid 1890’s to about 1907. They are post 1887 inside lubricated.

Murph

 

[jeffrefrig]

So, for all that money spent, do you think we'll get a range report?

 

[Giorgio Italy]

.45 s&w

Great Murph, thank you so much
At least we are back twenty years compared to that box of the 20s. Of course if you do not find it Americans a box of UMC .45 s&w of 1881, we will certainly not here! To tell the truth, I have never seen even a box of "Revolver Ball Cartridges Calibre .45" of which certainly millions have been produced. It seems to me that the difficulty of discovering these finds proves their rarity!
Giorgio

But ...
Why didn't UMC and USC immediately adopt an inside lubricated ball like the .45 colt? What actual diameter did those s&w balls have if they were fired into revolvers that had used government cartridges with the inside lubricated ball in service?
... because the first government .45s were inside lubricated, right??? Or not!

 

[BMur]

Correct bullet type

Giorgio,
I actually have not done the research on the early Colt round. Remember that the Colt 45 was also a "U.S. Army" revolver initially and the Frankford Arsenal was initially manufacturing the inside lubricated bullet for these guns. Same with the Schofield. However, we do know from letters(military communications) between the Arsenal and Smith & Wesson along with UMC that the early rounds were actually outside lubricated and that the Army didn't like the lubrication melting off the rounds provided by UMC. So, they manufactured there own rounds and actually tailored them to fit "both" the Colt and the Schofield. Letters also confirm that the Armory "altered" the chambers of the guns so who knows what they actually did to them?

Smith & Wesson was focused on accuracy. They knew that the outside lubricated bullet along with a case having no case crimp would provide the most accurate results. This is also documented with the letter that you actually provided from the Parson's book.

Once the Schofield became "Surplus" in 1880 it was then subjected to "Civilian Industry production ammo"....Totally different from the Frankford Armory stuff and actually, in my opinion more accurate than the Military ammo. That Civilian Industry ammo was still tailored to the same concept that Smith & Wesson supported. An "outside lubricated bullet with no case crimp". This bullet is seen in a drawing that I provided in a previous post from an 1881 U. S. Cartridge Co. Catalog.

I can't perform research on the details of the early bullets subject without actually having an authentic early round "in my hand" to examine it. So, until that happens? Unknown.

You'd also have to perform research on the Early Colt 45 SAA U.S. issued guns and compare the chamber specs to the U. S. Schofields....Then compare a Civilian Colt SAA chamber from the same ERA in an attempt to discover what the Armory actually did to the chambers of the guns to alter them and chamber the same modified round made up at the Frankford Arsenal.

It wasn't just case length that was the issue. The chambers are much different between the Colt and Schofield. That's also clearly documented in Military communications between the Springfield Armory and the Frankford Arsenal commanding officers. So, case spec issues would be also a relevant problem between both revolvers.

Smith & Wesson did not manufacture a 45 to Colt Spec's....NO WAY.... So, without question the bore's would be different between them originally. Which would be another study. Were the bores also altered by the Armory if the chambers were? I don't know. I'd bet money though that the "Groove diameters" are different but within tolerance when using "Black powder" as a propellant.

As an example the Schofield might have been engineered for a .450 bullet where as the Colt was engineered for a .454 bullet. Which would also account for the significant difference in chamber specs. The U. S. Army didn't care, they only wanted them to function without issue. The concept of the Military as a primary focus is "Make it work".



Murph

 

[BMur]

Northfield Historical Society

I decided to just go ahead and contact the Historical Society in Northfield, Mn.

I'm waiting for their reply.


I searched their website and found these photos. Along with a previous auction of a Smith & Wesson 44 American that is documented as belonging to an early James Gang Member.

Notice that they are all chambered in rounds that were readily available in 1876. Two are large frame 44 Smith & Wesson revolvers. That makes perfect sense.

The captured Moores 7 shooter is Cole Youngers. That old 7 shooter Moores 32rf he might have actually carried in the Civil War!


Murph

 

[gmborkovic]

Im following this Thread, interesting.
But those period pics with the dudes with the big rim Stetsons,
is really neat.

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Dimensions

I knew that the two weapons had different dimensions. I have some notes regarding the dimensions of the cylinder and the barrel but I do not remember now where I found them. Maybe in "A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver" Graham, Kopec, Moore. Or in Parsons' book

Colt Army:
barrel length 7.5”
barrel bore .445”
6 uniform left-handed scratches
step 16"
goove depth .005"
cylinder chamber bore from .485" to .482"
throat bore .450"
cylinder length 1.608"

Schofield:
barrel length 7.0"
barrel bore .436”
5 uniform right-handed scratches
step 20"
groove depth .006"
cylinder chamber bore from .481" to .482"

Who knows why Ordnance did not demand the same size from S&W as Colt? Since the S&W went from .44 to .45 specifically for the government?

But maybe I'm going off topic!!! That was the weapons of the James Gang!

Giorgio

 

[BMur]

Schofield /Colt Comparison

Giorgio,
Outstanding post! That's says it all about the Black Powder Era....Absolutely nothing was standardized.

You can see the challenge that the U.S. Army faced trying to co-mingle the two 45 caliber revolvers to chamber the same round. I agree, the foul up was with the minimal details specified by the Government for the pistol trials. Hard to predict this outcome though. Since they actually liked both guns...Who would have known? I think the Government usually decides on only one winner per contract. You have to admit, even today you can clearly see the advantages of both guns in the trials.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Accounting for Gang Guns

So, if you can't find the Schofields? Lets find all the known guns and see if there is any room for a Schofield...


So far we have accounted for:

Frank James: 1875 Remington (2)
Jesse James: 1873 Colt SAA and ?
Dick Liddell: 1873 Colt SAA
Cole Younger: S&W 44 Russian and Moores 7 shooter
Bob Ford: 1873 Colt SAA ( sworn statement used to kill Jesse with) and an early New model 3 in 44 Russian.
Clarence Hite: S&W 44 Russian
Charlie Pitts: S&W 44 Russian
Chadwell: 44 American

**** Also a dropped Colt 38 Conversion in the Northfield bank.


Additional information from the Northfield Historical Society in photo's below.

NOTICE: You can now remove Jesse James Schofield from the list serial number 2299...."SAID to have been preferred by Jesse"????

I wonder if Jesse James Jr. drove his jalopy up to Northfield and sold a few photo's.

Also, photo 2 can you see anything wrong with the display photo? I've actually suggested corrections to museum fire arm displays before...They never take it well.


NOTE: Our firearm bucket is getting awfully full about now. Not a lot of room for the 45 Schofield! I honestly didn't know just how popular the 44 Smith & Wesson was with the gang...Full house of 44's! 5 Smith & Wesson's and 2 Remingtons.

The only possibility at this point is still actually "Jesse James" and the other Younger Brothers. I sure hope the historical society gets back to me so I can find out if they have information on the other Younger brothers pistols? That would leave only one person left....Jesse James himself..... Did he have a Schofield revolver along with his Colt SAA on him when he was murdered in 1882???? That's the question left now. He's the last possibility now once the younger brothers guns are accounted for.

I'm not a believer though...the early newspaper only days after his murder list it as a 44 Smith and Wesson

Murph

 

[BMur]

Pattern of 44's

Ok, I'll mellow out while waiting for an answer from the Historical Society...If not, I'll call them...I'm like that.

Just food for thought. This research of the early gang shows a definite pattern of 44 caliber use. It makes perfect sense when you think about it from a cartridge availability stand point? The 44 was extremely popular at that time.... Also, if you find only one box of 44 Russians....."ALL the gang is now loaded up and good to go". Even the Remington 44 would likely chamber a 44 Russian round. Especially an early round that was outside lubricated. Back then, if it chambered it would shoot. That's the black powder advantage.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

I'm thinking that Pix 2 above is a Model 2, 2nd Issue .38 S&W. It is identified as a .32. Hard to tell from one photo and no reference scale.