JM625 Misfires

[RickK]

Returned from Afghanistan and picked up my 625 JM and 686 SSR.
Really nice handguns. I had the 625 sent into S&W for their Action job.
Smooooth as Butter. Loaded up a dozen of moon clips and out to the back yard range. Bang, Click, Click Bang, on and on. Ok the reloades were over 8 years old and I used WW Primers. Did a lot of research and found that the Primer of choice for the 625JM is Federal Large Pistol. So be it, Searched all over the World had no Idea of the reloading supplies shortage. After a month I found a reloading shop 10 miles from my house that had 5000 in stock, bought 3000, new brass and some 230gr Hard Cast lead bullets. Primed 100 cases with the Federal Large Pistol Primers ( RCBS hand Primer seated firmly ) and loaded up 8gr. of AA#5 under 230 gr LRN. Loaded up 6 Moon clips and out to the back yard. First six, Fast double action two misfires, All primers nicely dimmpled dead center, refired went off. Six more rounds two misfires same as previous. Six rounds single action all fired, Six rounds Slow double action all fired. 6 rounds Medium Fast double action 1 misfire refired went off.
Trigger Spring screw as tight as possible already checked that. What gets me is that all primers have good hits....could it be the moon clips...
trigger main spring or rebound spring. Like I said the action is unbeliveably smooth but not worth a Darn if the gun is not 100% reliable.
I plan on shooting my first IDPA match next week and I would at least like to look like I know what I'm doing....not stand their going bang, Click, Click...... I ordered Wolf Spring Kits from Midway 1 standard power and 1 reduced power the kits also include the rebound springs 11,12 & 15 lbs. You think that will help or you think maybe I didn't do that good of a job seating the primers. Oh yes I bought 50 rounds of Wolf 45ACP and fired 12 rounds, really bad misfires 3 out of 6 had to be refired each time. Needless to say I'm not very impressed with my 625JM and if thats the kind of Action work S&W does I would have been better off sending it to the MARX Brothers.......they said in the the Action Package it would be test fired for function......probably one round and as long as the bullet came out the end it was good. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks Rick

 

[Robert Finegan]

A lot of the revolver shooters like to change out the firing pins on late model smiths when action jobs are performed. An oversized firing pin can be the difference of bang or no bang when the pulls have been lightened via spring swaps and tuning to the edge of function and failure. Cylinder and slide and apex tactical both make extended FP to address this issues and the cost is about $20.00 or so...

-Robert

 

[Sportsterguy]

Returned from Afghanistan and picked up my 625 JM and 686 SSR.
Really nice handguns. I had the 625 sent into S&W for their Action job.
Smooooth as Butter. Loaded up a dozen of moon clips and out to the back yard range. Bang, Click, Click Bang, on and on. Ok the reloades were over 8 years old and I used WW Primers. Did a lot of research and found that the Primer of choice for the 625JM is Federal Large Pistol. So be it, Searched all over the World had no Idea of the reloading supplies shortage. After a month I found a reloading shop 10 miles from my house that had 5000 in stock, bought 3000, new brass and some 230gr Hard Cast lead bullets. Primed 100 cases with the Federal Large Pistol Primers ( RCBS hand Primer seated firmly ) and loaded up 8gr. of AA#5 under 230 gr LRN. Loaded up 6 Moon clips and out to the back yard. First six, Fast double action two misfires, All primers nicely dimmpled dead center, refired went off. Six more rounds two misfires same as previous. Six rounds single action all fired, Six rounds Slow double action all fired. 6 rounds Medium Fast double action 1 misfire refired went off.
Trigger Spring screw as tight as possible already checked that. What gets me is that all primers have good hits....could it be the moon clips...
trigger main spring or rebound spring. Like I said the action is unbeliveably smooth but not worth a Darn if the gun is not 100% reliable.
I plan on shooting my first IDPA match next week and I would at least like to look like I know what I'm doing....not stand their going bang, Click, Click...... I ordered Wolf Spring Kits from Midway 1 standard power and 1 reduced power the kits also include the rebound springs 11,12 & 15 lbs. You think that will help or you think maybe I didn't do that good of a job seating the primers. Oh yes I bought 50 rounds of Wolf 45ACP and fired 12 rounds, really bad misfires 3 out of 6 had to be refired each time. Needless to say I'm not very impressed with my 625JM and if thats the kind of Action work S&W does I would have been better off sending it to the MARX Brothers.......they said in the the Action Package it would be test fired for function......probably one round and as long as the bullet came out the end it was good. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks Rick

Lots of variable problems you may have with your .45 Rick that I can't advise you on. Sounds like you put it through it's paces. My first guess would be a weak mainspring.

I'd promptly be on the phone with S&W and tell them you want that premium revolver fixed. If it's misfiring after their MASTER gunsmiths have performed their majic on it I can only dread thinking whats coming off their regular production line.

Good luck and let us know what the problem was.

BTW welcome back from the sand box safe and sound!!!

 

[Dale53]

I have two 625's (625-6 and a 625-8 JM Special). I did a mild action job and tuned the pair at 9.0 lbs double action and 3.0 lbs single action. They were 100% with Federal Primers. I am running low on Federals so loaded up some cases with WW LP primers and promptly had misfires. I installed a Cylinder and Slide firing pin and the misfires went away.

Each revolver is a law unto itself. You may be like me and only have to replace the firing pin with the extended C&S pin. That is the first thing I would try. It is easy to do if you know how to safely remove the side plate.

On the other hand, I have an S&W Performance Center 629 Light Hunter and it will not reliably fire WW primers even WITH the long firing pin. They have just lightened the action too much. I will be replacing the main spring tension screw with an original (part of the action package is often to shorten the strain screw). That should give me enough extra force to resolve my problem with the Light Hunter (the firing pin helped but did not completely solve the problem).

Highly tuned race cars and highly tuned "race guns" do require a bit more tender loving care. However, when things are finally sorted out, they will enable you to do things with each that you could not otherwise do.

I am not at all discouraged and you shouldn't be either.

By the way, Thank You, SIR for your service to our country (I am a father of a retired Colonel from Delta Force).

FWIW
Dale53

 

[RickK]

Dale
I'm about ready to ordered the extended C&S firing pin from Brownells.
Plan on giving S&W a call in the morning though. Good point about the main spring tension screw I'll see if Brownell's has one.
Thanks
Rick

 

[epj]

Robert, I don't have a 625, but do have a 25-2. The 25-2 will fire without moon clips since the chambers have a ledge for the cartridge to headspace on. I have very few if any misfires using no clips at all. When I use the plastic clips, I get a lot of misfires. I have far fewer with steel clips. The gun has a Wilson reduced power mainspring. I think I have read that the newer M25 variants have no chamber lip to headspace the cartridge and are therefore dependent on the moonclips to headspace. What I'm getting around to is that you may want to try some different moonclips and see if that may be part or all of the problem.

 

[Stainz]

The full length strain screw will likely fix your odd ftf problems. It is especially important with WOLFF hammer leafs due to the 'sharpened' screw intruding into the hollow back and lessening the spring's pre-load. The regular power Wolff hammer leaf is 100% reliable with Fed primers and 'very' relaible with Win primers, while the reduced power is 100% with Feds and aggravating with anything else. As for the trigger return, decide what your use will be. For the fastest trigger return, ie, competition, leave the OEM in place. If you can 'wait' for the return, use the lessened return springs in the Wolff kit. I'm retired... mine has the 13 lb in place!

FTFs with the 625 can be caused by many things. It's easy to write off the moonclips - buy blued steel. The source for them is the manufacturer - Ranch Products - 100/$35 delivered (I have two .223 metal ammo cans full of loaded moonclips - in layers - 105 'clips/each - 630 rounds ready to go per can. Bring on the Zombies!). The C&S extended firing pin for the frame-mounted fps is the same size as the OEM - it just has a wider notch, permitting it to flatten the little return spring a tad more. Dry firing with it may shorten that little spring's life a lot, too. I tried one - it's in my parts box now. My most aggravating ftf 'find' was a teeny cotton swipe's thread wrapped under the ejector star at the axis junction - check it carefully when you clean. Another source - cases! Fiocchi brass is great - but the Fed primers seem to seat a teeny bit deeper. Starline brass works great - loads into the Ranch Products 'clips easily by hand - unloads quickly with the nut-drver style demooner (Brownells, etc.), which holds six empties at a time.

I hope some part of this helps. My 625JM is a keeper, for sure. I ordered mine the week they were announced - had it ever since - great revolver. The worst aspect is inding Federal LP primers. I have plenty of OEM leafs, if I need to go back to factory ammo. It, and the 627 Pro, are in my top three favorites.

Stainz

 

[TLE]

Some of the firing pins from S&W are a bit too short. If you install the C&S pin, remember that you can not dry fire without snap caps. The retaining pin for the firing pin does not stop the forward travel of the C&S pin like it does with the stock pin. Without snap caps the C&S pin will impact the rear of the firing pin bushing, shortening the life of the pin and possibly driving the pin bushing loose.

You are correct in that Federal primers are required for light striking light trigger pull Smiths. You should slightly crush fit the primers. I have found that the best sensitivity is achieved by seating the primers .006" to .008" below flush.

Flat moon clips and clean chambers are also required so that the hammer strike isn't trying to push the cartridge forward and waisting its energy.
Some 625's have tight chambers that will not let the rounds drop in as freely as they should.

With the hammer back, take something like a rod or toothpick and work the firing pin forward and back to check for free movement. I had a 625JM that had a very rough firing pin channel that I had to clean up and polish.

 

[imjin138]

I bought a few years ago from the Performance center, I took ot out to Shooter and on SA it worked fine, I did a fast DA group and got all clicks. Fortunatly for me Shooter's gunsmith is S&W trained. after a few rubs with a stone he had it up and running.

But believe me I was a bit peeved because of the price I paid for it, it should have worked right the first time.

 

[andyo5]

The 45ACP round headspaces on the case mouth, unlike cartridges that were designed for revolvers. Thats why there has to be a ledge in each chamber for the case mouth to index onto. You can't remove this ledge. The moon clip is a convenience, allowing easier loading and removal of empties since the 45ACP round can't be extracted with an extractor star (there is no rim for the star to grab onto). The moon clip holds the rounds, but when struck by the firing pin, each round can move forward unless stopped by the ledge in the chamber. If some of those ledges are placed too deep, misfires will occur in those cylinders. I'm not saying this is definitely the cause, but it is a possibility some chambers are too deep. Worth checking if all else fails.
I notice that you have overlooked the possibility of sending it back to S&W, probably because you are hoping to use it in the upcoming match. But they are obliged to correct it and send you a call tag to pick it up so you don't have to pay for shipping.
You might consider calling the custom shop, talking to the master gunsmith who worked on it, and asking exactly what was done to the action.

 

[surveyor47]

I always test my guns with factory ammo, but shoot them with my reloads. If your gun fails to work properly with factory ammo such as Winchester White Box, I would send it back to S&W AGAIN and AGAIN until they get it right. You paid good money for PERFORMANCE CENTER services and they are the experts.

My S&W 57 Mountain Gun had a saga of factory defects including:
Loose ejector rod.
Out of time twice.
Light primer hits, causing misfires.

I sent my gun back several times until I found the "right guy" at S&W to fix it, an old gunsmith. I wagered him the price of all warranty repairs carried out to date - if he could take that gun to the range and fire 100 rounds without a malfunction. If the gun malfunctioned, he would personally see to it that it was either fixed correctly or replaced. The gun came back over 2 months later (he lost) and has worked perfectly ever since- 3 years ago. The gun now works the way it is supposed to work.

I suspect that too many people are purchasing new S&Ws as collectors items, aka Safe Queens, and are not shooting them enough for S&W to fix their problem. When people first start shooting current manufacture guns, it seems that they frequently have problems. I have seen 2 or 3 brand new S&W686s lock up or misfire on the range on their first outting. It doesnt happen all the time, but enough to reinforce that old adage, "Never take an unproven weapon into battle."

Funny how my pre-lock S&Ws go bang each and every time I pull the trigger.......

If you take a S&W M&P semi auto to the range, I feel very certain that it will go bang each and every time. Why? Because police will not deal with an unreliable gun. Police are no longer using revolvers, so their reliability is no longer a serious issue to S&W.

 

[Dale53]

Funny how my pre-lock S&Ws go bang each and every time I pull the trigger.......

Don't be so sure. In the late sixties, not long after the Model 60 "Chiefs Special" hit the market a good friend bought one. The cylinder would not close on factory rounds (insufficient headspace). Yeah, yeah, yeah, they always fire every revolver (I've got a bridge for you to buy>)). At any rate, my friend carefully marked the cylinder in an unobtrusive place. He got the revolver back from Smith in a couple of weeks. The cylinder had been replaced, the gun showed evidence of being fired and NOW it worked perfectly. Oh, the bill stated that they had checked the gun out and there was nothing wrong with it....

So, there has ALWAYS been less than perfect revolvers that left the factory (and cars, and boats and TV sets, etc).

I have always been aware of something that may need a little "adjustment" until it is "like I like it". Shouldn't happen, but it does. I have learned to adapt and do what is necessary to end up happy...

FWIW
Dale53

 

[Dale53]

>>>The 45ACP round headspaces on the case rim<<<

I know this is NOT what you meant. It should read "The 45 ACP round headspaces on the case MOUTH".

>>>If some of those ledges are placed too deep, misfires will occur in those cylinders.<<<

I will respectfully take issue with this. The late model 625's are NOT headspaced on the case mouth (they have a conventional throat) and depend entirely on the full moon clips (or half moon clips, etc) to headspace the rounds. They have NO problems with ignition from this cause assuming the clips are within specs and in good condition. It IS true, however, that they are not 100% reliable WITHOUT the clips (the factory will tell you this, this is NOT my assumption). The early revolvers, from 1917 until the change was made WERE reliable without the clips.

This is NOT a problem for me. I use .45 Auto Rims for general use and use good clips for carry if I need a fast reload (or if I were in action shooting).

FWIW
Dale53

 

[kennyb]

when you get the bugs worked out you will love your 625JM...great gun!and you WILL get them worked out

 

[andyo5]

>>>The 45ACP round headspaces on the case rim<<<

I know this is NOT what you meant. It should read "The 45 ACP round headspaces on the case MOUTH".

>>>If some of those ledges are placed too deep, misfires will occur in those cylinders.<<<

I will respectfully take issue with this. The late model 625's are NOT headspaced on the case mouth (they have a conventional throat) and depend entirely on the full moon clips (or half moon clips, etc) to headspace the rounds. They have NO problems with ignition from this cause assuming the clips are within specs and in good condition. It IS true, however, that they are not 100% reliable WITHOUT the clips (the factory will tell you this, this is NOT my assumption). The early revolvers, from 1917 until the change was made WERE reliable without the clips.

This is NOT a problem for me. I use .45 Auto Rims for general use and use good clips for carry if I need a fast reload (or if I were in action shooting).

FWIW
Dale53

Yes, I meant case mouth. I have corrected my original post. Thanks.

 

[RickK]

Called S&W and spoke with one of their Tech's. Explained the problem, He assured me that the gun was fired with factory ammo and performed
as required. He said it could be my reloads, also because I had the Action package done that the mainspring pull is reduced 20%, there again
demanding extra care priming my reloads. I asked about installing the C&S extended firing pin and received neither a Yea or Nay, just that the firing pin was not likely the problem and the conversation reverted back to my reloads. I was offered the option to send it in and have it looked at. I asked if S&W could send me a Stock Mainspring and mainspring tension screw, in case the one in the gun was filed down during the action work. He assured me that they do not file the screw to obtain lighter trigger pulls, it is done by spring replacement. He said they would send out a stock mainspring and I could try that ( "Iwaited all year to attend my first IDPA shoot, I will not be Denied" ) If that dosent fix the problem then I will send it in. I was quite satisfied with S&W customer service, the Tech took time and with me and I never once felt like I was being brushed -off. Will see what happens....I'l post back when I replace the trigger mainspring.

Rick

 

[SW357Addict]

If I were you, I would do or have done a few things to your 625JM. Either have a competent gunsmith or if you have technical ability and a little confidence you could do the following:

1. Install a C&W Extended firing pin.
2. Install a standard power Wolff mainspring and standard length strain screw. With this combination you will have a much smoother and more reliable double action and single action trigger pull. In fact the Wolff mainspring will make the trigger pull feel lighter than a factory S&W mainspring even though they are under the same tension.
3. Install Power Custom trigger and hammer shims to tighten up and smooth out both the trigger and the hammer. This will help to increase reliability by ensuring that there is no friction impeding the hammer when it falls.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sportsterguy]

"He said it could be my reloads, also because I had the Action package done that the mainspring pull is reduced 20%, there again
demanding extra care priming my reloads."

I took a guess at that MS. I loosened up mine on my ancient no dash 57 and experienced misfires YEARS ago. Tightened it back up and it's never failed to go BANG again when I've squeezed the trigger, even with thousands of my own reloads.

Hope you get er up and running quickly. Let us know if that was the problem.

Respectfully,

Roger

 

[scooter123]

I think the solution will be going to an extended length firing pin. Moon clips act to provide an additional level of flexability in the way the cartridge is retained. This will reduce the amount of force delivered to the primer and increase the tendancy for a misfire. In addition, S&W has shortened the projection of the firing pin by at least 40% with the frame mounted firing pins. With the old hammer mounted pins you used to be able to use a dime to check the firing pin projection with the hammer fully forward, now a dime is way to thick. IMO, use of an extended firing pin should be automatic with any action job on the new guns and Simth should have done this already. However, there is probably a report of some injury that was traced to a longer firing pin in a gun with a bad hammer block at some time and now the lawyers won't allow it for liability reasons.

BTW, I just ordered a 610 today and plan on shooting a lot of 40 S&W with this gun. Since it's purely a moon clip gun I've been thinking about having a longer firing pin installed before I even take it to the range.

 

[surveyor47]

Check primer seating depth on your reloads. This can be a real problem on a Dillon RL550B. If you used the RCBS hand primer, you will notice that they seat much deeper.