Just back from the Indy NRA show

[18DAI]

I don't worry about my 3rd gens wearing out or breaking. I also have enough of them to last me too. More than enough actually. So I don't care what S&W is currently doing or making.

If they were to make a new production 3rd gen or even a 4th gen metal framed, hammer fired TDA 45, then I might be interested and they might have a product I would buy.

But with six years to go till retirement my 3rd gen 45's will get me there. I can't recall even hearing about a steel S&W 45XX wearing out.

If I were just starting out, I'd be looking at the Sig 227, probably the SAS version. I shot a brand new 227 for the first time Sunday. Very accurate! No malfunctions in the 100 or so rounds the new owner and I ran through it. Those E2 grips felt good too. Good looking gun with a nice trigger right out of the box. IIRC the owner paid right at $800 for it.

First time I've had gun lust for a new model handgun in over a decade. Who knows, if the P227 proves to be as durable as a 4566 over the next two years, I might end up with one. Regards 18DAI

 

[Fastbolt]

...
The truth is that I'll continue to use my 3913TSW as my primary self defense carry until something makes it unusable. At that point, I worry about what I'm going to replace it with. Given the general reliability of the the 3rd generation guns, I don't think that's going to be very soon though.

I'd have bought a P239 during the armorer class myself if they'd been more reasonable on the LE discount. It was only available for guns ordered during the class, through the reps, and they wanted something like $650 for a standard P239 at that time. SIG's are fine guns and all, even if some of their assorted wire springs require some periodic attention for replacement, but that was a little pricey just for something to supplement my 3913 at the time.

As older 3rd gen's start to pass 10K-12K+ rounds fired, it's not unexpected that they may require a new ejector & extractor. Easy and simple repair for the factory, an armorer or a smith familiar with the guns. Simple parts to keep in stock, too.

Less common might be a worn hammer or drawbar. Older drawbars (with sharper corner cuts) might crack at either back corner or in the middle (behind the disconnector tab) after enough time & wear.

The 3rd gen's that get the most wear & tear seem to be the .40's (unsurprising).

The TSW's incorporated some features which have seemed to help reduce wear & tear issues and increase service life.

In general, replacing recoil springs helps keep guns running and reduces battering & accelerated wear. Hardly surprising. (Even in my last Glock recert the instructor made the comment that replacing recoil springs assemblies helped keep guns alive.)

Properly keeping the rails lubed helps keep guns in good condition, too (especially alloy frames).

I've have a bunch of repair/spare parts I've collected over the years, but it's not often I have to repair a 3rd gen gun. I remember when newly trained armorers had to wait and take turns for a chance to practice their skills in replacing extractors & ejectors in our aging inventory of original 3rd gen's. It wasn't until the guns were reaching 12-16+ years of service that we started seeing a small of them showing signs of needing new extractors & ejectors.

New recoil & mag springs can help prevent a number of problems when it comes to wear & tear and functioning.

So can PROPER cleaning & lubrication. Excessive solvent & oil can create its own problems ... as can lack of cleaning and lube.

As an armorer I've had to resolve significantly more problems caused by the owner/user level maintenance than by actual gun/parts problems.

FWIW, while armorers are still told to replace recoil & mag springs at the 5 year (left loaded)/5,000 rounds fired interval for the compacts (3913/4513/4013, etc), I still prefer to lean more toward replacing recoil springs at 2,500 - 3,000 rounds, or less, in my own guns of those models. I replace the mag springs closer to the normal recommendation (which may mean at every other earlier recoil spring replacement).

Just some thoughts and observations.

 

[Fastbolt]

But with six years to go till retirement my 3rd gen 45's will get me there. I can't recall even hearing about a steel S&W 45XX wearing out. ...

If I were just starting out, I'd be looking at the Sig 227, probably the SAS version. I shot a brand new 227 for the first time Sunday. Very accurate! No malfunctions in the 100 or so rounds the new owner and I ran through it. Those E2 grips felt good too. Good looking gun with a nice trigger right out of the box. IIRC the owner paid right at $800 for it.

First time I've had gun lust for a new model handgun in over a decade. Who knows, if the P227 proves to be as durable as a 4566 over the next two years, I might end up with one. Regards 18DAI

Good luck wearing out a 4506/4566. Barrels are harder to come by (the TSW's used different machining & tolerances, and even then there have been incremental revisions). Aside from maybe replacing an older staked recoil guide rod with a 1-piece unit, or maybe shooting enough to wear out an older extractor/ejector, they're pretty robust and durable.

If SIG has managed to get their mag for the new .45 set up right, and finally got their .45 extractor where it ought to be for the solid slides, they ought to have a decent selling .45 on their hands. The E2 grip ought to resolve some long-standing complaints from guys with shorter fingers, too.

I'd always opt for the TDA version, myself, as the enhanced DAO (also called the DAK) just doesn't quite do it for me. Lighter trigger pull for the longer recovery position, and heavier for shorter position. I know they told us the engineers felt it was safer for cops, in case they had their fingers on the triggers after the first shot (heavier trigger for shorter trigger recovery point after initial long/light trigger pull for first shot), but it's just a bit weird for me. I'd much rather have plain old TDA. The SRT is fine, but even the standard trigger/sear is good enough.

 

[18DAI]

Yea, I'm not worried about wearing out the 4566. Fortunately the two I currently own both came with the late production 1 piece rod. Thanks for the tip!

I have heard many tales of broken ejectors, particularly with the early 4516 no dash and 4516-1's. I have a few late model ejectors in my spares kit. Just in case. Thankfully I haven't needed one.........yet.

My shooting has been curtailed the last couple of years due to financial and time issues. Last year was I barely shot 2500 rounds. In fact I only made it to one IDPA match last year.

Most of my shooting is with the LE stainless, decock only, spurless hammer 4566. And occaisonally my 4506-1 "pawn shop" gun. I prefer and enjoy shooting the 4566 as that is the pistol I carry the most at work.

I have also run around 500 rounds through the 4516 no dash I picked up late last year.

Like you Fastbolt I prefer the TDA guns. THe Sig DAK and HK LEM didn't impress me. I have not shot a Sig with the SRT trigger yet. I've heard good things about it on another board.

The P227 I shot Sunday was a very impressive pistol. The DA pull was smooth with a clean break and the SA was equally crisp. I had no problems getting fast follow up shots with it. The E2 grip is a big improvement, IMO, over the older factory grips.

I'm not a Sig 220 fan having had various problems with the two I owned. Broken trigger return springs and roll pins walking out as well as some feeding issues when using the Sig 8-round mags. I also didn't care for the recoil "pulse" when shooting Ranger-T in them.

But I was impressed with the P227. It was fun to shoot and easy to be accurate with. Good build quality too. Nice finish and no tool marks could be found. First new model gun I've shot in years where I went home afterwards and thought; "what can I sell to fund buying one of those?"

If I had longer to go on the job.......... Regards 18DAI

 

[18DAI]

Apex Tactical?

I just had a thought about 3rd gen spare parts. Those who are concerned about the future availability of 3rd gen parts may want to Email Apex Tactical.

Apex has made a small fortune making parts for those m&p guns. They appear to pay attention and listen to what S&W owners want. Maybe they might make some 3rd gen parts too? Maybe, if enough interest is shown. Regards 18DAI

 

[italiansport]

I believe the last time I needed to replace a broken part on my 4006(drawbar) I had to order it from Brownells. I try to keep critical spare parts on hand for all my regularly used pistols and revolvers.
Jim

 

[vigil617]

I too have enough Third Gens to not have to worry about wearing them out in my lifetime. Still and all, though, it would be nice if S&W showed more interest in supporting these fine products from yesteryear. Maybe the aftermarket route is the way things will have to go.

In the meantime, though, I'll be perfectly happy shooting my Third Gens at the range, and shooting the breeze about them right here with the rest of you guys, both old and new to these pistols. Third Gen Life is Good.

 

[loner1]

+1 to 18DAI above about Apex tactical. I just spent about seven months trying to obtain a simple ambi-safety lever plunger to get my 5905 up and running. Search the web for 3rd gen parts and get used to "out of stock/sold out/overdue" across the board almost.

Kudos though to the performance center who got my pistol up and running no charge at the end of the road for me but I cannot agree more that a quality outfit like Apex or the like would have a windfall of business servicing and supplying 3rd gen gun and their owners.

IMHO also put out some up-to-date CHP 4006 and WVSP 4566 pistols and watch them take a bite out of Sig's classic line (and I like Sig don't get me wrong).

 

[mag318]

This was the conventions first time in Indianapolis and what a great town it was. From the police to all the volunteers, they made everyone feel very welcome. So I hope to see future convention being hosted there.

 

[cpeblue]

Here is something I find amusing about S&W and there reps. If you have been to other manufacturer specific forums and watched a thread like this one , there would have been a rep on by now . They would either be giving a total defense of the company's stand or give us a 'lets see what we can do' answer . I notice that here we get crickets from them.

I also have enough normal service parts in stash but what I don't have is a few extra grips or the safety to convert the rest of my tsw guns to de-cock only. Scalper prices are out of the question . So with out factory support I and others are dead in the water. Here's another one , the retaining button for the mag release on the CS9/40/45 is a use once only Item reuse would be unsafe . I don't even want to think about the price of magazines.

 

[lhump1961]

I'd have bought a P239 during the armorer class myself if they'd been more reasonable on the LE discount. It was only available for guns ordered during the class, through the reps, and they wanted something like $650 for a standard P239 at that time. SIG's are fine guns and all, even if some of their assorted wire springs require some periodic attention for replacement, but that was a little pricey just for something to supplement my 3913 at the time.

As older 3rd gen's start to pass 10K-12K+ rounds fired, it's not unexpected that they may require a new ejector & extractor. Easy and simple repair for the factory, an armorer or a smith familiar with the guns. Simple parts to keep in stock, too.

Much less common might be a worn hammer or drawbar. Older drawbars (with sharper corner cuts) might crack at either back corner or in the middle (behind the disconnector tab) after enough time & wear.

The 3rd gen's that get the most wear & tear seem to be the .40's (unsurprising).

The TSW's incorporated some features which have seemed to help reduce wear & tear issues and increase service life.

In general, replacing recoil springs helps keep guns running and reduces battering & accelerated wear. Hardly surprising. (Even in my last Glock recert the instructor made the comment that replacing recoil springs assemblies helped keep guns alive.)

Properly keeping the rails lubed helps keep guns in good condition, too (especially alloy frames).

I've have a bunch of repair/spare parts I've collected over the years, but it's not often I have to repair a 3rd gen gun. I remember when newly trained armorers had to wait and take turns for a chance to practice their skills in replacing extractors & ejectors in our aging inventory of original 3rd gen's. It wasn't until the guns were reaching 12-16+ years of service that we started seeing a small of them showing signs of needing new extractors & ejectors.

New recoil & mag springs can help prevent a number of problems when it comes to wear & tear and functioning.

So can PROPER cleaning & lubrication. Excessive solvent & oil can create its own problems ... as can lack of cleaning and lube.

As an armorer I've had to resolve significantly more problems caused by the owner/user level maintenance than by actual gun/parts problems.

FWIW, while armorers are still told to replace recoil & mag springs at the 5 year (left loaded)/5,000 rounds fired interval for the compacts (3913/4513/4013, etc), I still prefer to lean more toward replacing recoil springs at 2,500 - 3,000 rounds, or less, in my own guns of those models. I replace the mag springs closer to the normal recommendation (which may mean at every other earlier recoil spring replacement).

Just some thoughts and observations.

On the subject of recoil springs...what is the proper weight for the 39xx/69xx series for replacement springs? I see them from 15lbs up to 20 lbs.

 

[cpeblue]

This was the conventions first time in Indianapolis and what a great town it was. From the police to all the volunteers, they made everyone feel very welcome. So I hope to see future convention being hosted there.

Indianapolis is a great town, streets are wide enough that traffic moves well. Plenty of restaurants , parking was a might tough but all in all a great place. Before marriage always went to the 500 that was always a fantastic time. I'm a bit skeptical about Nashville next year but then I haven't look to see where there convention center is at yet.

 

[GaryS]

First let me say I am not a Luddite . I do not expect S&W to ever make new 3rd gens for the public . I have more than I could ever wear out so it really isn't a concern. I own a couple of 7 poly guns and have no great distaste for them and I can see why the gun world is speeding in that direction . My main concern was the total washing of the hands attitude that S&W shows in maintaining service parts for the 3rd gens . I'm sure the aftermarket will step up but that will take a while and things will be Expensive

I don't expect that they'll start manufacturing the 3rd gen guns again, but it would be very nice if they would continue to maintain stocks of common parts.

Will the aftermarket step up? Or will S&W step on the aftermarket to keep them from doing so.

Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my 3rd gen guns and find parts when I can.

Thanks also to Fastbolt for his insights.

 

[GaryS]

It was a good venue, better than Houston I think. I'm looking forward to Nashville next year. My wife and I were there last year and I had a great time. So did she, but she wants to go somewhere else this summer. We can go where she wants this summer and I'll get back to Nashville next year.

Indianapolis is a great town, streets are wide enough that traffic moves well. Plenty of restaurants , parking was a might tough but all in all a great place. Before marriage always went to the 500 that was always a fantastic time. I'm a bit skeptical about Nashville next year but then I haven't look to see where there convention center is at yet.

 

[Fastbolt]

Here's another one , the retaining button for the mag release on the CS9/40/45 is a use once only Item reuse would be unsafe . I don't even want to think about the price of magazines.

The plastic mag catch nut is recommended to be replaced if removed for service (repair). Having fired both my CS45 & CS9 for many years, I've yet to find a reason to remove the mag catch in either. I did order a couple spare assemblies for them (body, nut & spring), but unless I ever wear out the steel mag catch body in either gun, I have no reason to remove the nuts.

I occasionally order a spare mag for each model from the factory, just to have extra ones put back in case of loss, damage, etc.

The .45 followers can wear differently than the 9 followers (bottom edge side window for slide stop tab and raised ridge on top), so I ordered extra .45 followers. I've shot my 3rd gen .45's enough to wear out some followers over the years.

 

[Fastbolt]

On the subject of recoil springs...what is the proper weight for the 39xx/69xx series for replacement springs? I see them from 15lbs up to 20 lbs.

Never asked. The factory recoil spring tension isn't given in armorer classes, as it's presumed armorers will replace recoil springs with standard factory springs. I returned to using factory recoil springs many years ago.

 

[Jhp147]

revolver company?

Someone above said, "From what I saw at the S&W booth they are a revolver company that also makes 1911s and they are trying to get their Poly pistols to be loved by all."
I guess they are a revolver company still. I'm not much for shrouded barrels and parts that look not just MIM, but stamped. When I look at what their newer revolvers look like compared to the Mdl. 57's, 58's, 66's, 28's, and 686's I had 30-35 years ago, I'm not sure. I do want one of those 640 Pros and a 625 of some breeds, but I wish my 642 shot to POA or even close, and wish it didn't cost a king's ransom to get a 3 inch anything, much less a simple Mdl. 12 or 13. Guess I'm just another one of those old guys that pines for the old days...even the Bangor Punta days would be an improvement, even with the occasional cracked 66 frames and lockwork full of shavings I saw.
Economics is what it is, though, and we tend to remember the past as better than it was, always.

 

[BE Mike]

I went on Friday with a group of buddies. It took us an hour to find a parking spot 6 blocks away. Although the facility was packed with people, they were polite. I thought the venue was too small for people to be able to move freely, compared to the last NRA Exhibit Hall I attended in Louisville in '08. The volunteers and vendors were friendly and polite, for the most part. There seemed to be too many people there for the reps to really be able to handle. There really was too much to see in the 4 hours we stayed. I was somewhat surprised to see so many female attendees. More women into guns is a good thing. I wasn't impressed with the quality of revolvers on display at S&W. The cylinder bolt cuts were buggered up from dry firing. Looks like they didn't have many timed right, even those from the Performance Center. I'm disappointed with the quality of S&W in general. I haven't felt that way since the early '80's when their quality control was in free fall. However, I do like some of the newer revolver designs. All-in-all we had a very good time and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves.

 

[Slidemuzik]

I don't recall seeing another thread on this forum so universally critical of S&W. I was there and had the same experiences. They were only there to enhance the company's reputation to pay off in the future. They weren't selling any guns at the show. They should have been focusing on patting the S&W owners on the back for owning any of any of their products. I can only hope somebody at S&W reads about this and makes some changes. Why go if you end up alienating your customer base?

 

[nocents]

another 1 in the column here for the after market to step up to the plate....it works for the auto after market business ....there are a lot of companies that make reproduction parts for all 3 big US makers...from body replacement parts....interior trim...emblems...anything ....one could probably build a 1969 Z-28 from a catalog......except for the factory DZ 302 engine block...