skjos
Member
I bought the early model of the M&P 15T (Troy rail version) it is a very solid AR, sad to hear they have gone down hill.
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Just back from the Indy NRA show
- Thread starter cpeblue
- Start date
I bought the early model of the M&P 15T (Troy rail version) it is a very solid AR, sad to hear they have gone down hill.
carbuncle
Member
I have 3 3rd Gens, but I think this news will keep me from buying any more as I have the ones on my bucket list. Too bad, but S&W's loss is Sig's gain.
Posted from my car phone.
Posted from my car phone.
Don't think that SIG isn't feeling the heat from the demand created by inexpensively produced plastic pistols.
Yes, they created their SRT sear to better compete against S&W 3rd gen TSW's (according to what we were told in a SIG Classic Pistol armorer class in the mid 2000's).
Notice how SIG has become sort of a "gun of the month" maker, similar to what S&W was doing with their metal pistols when the commercial catalog still contained 3rd gen guns? Gotta do something to keep attracting the non-LE/Gov buyers, right? Finishes, styling, model variations, etc. Bottom line? Prices are getting up there, aren't they?
Also, they've been trying to get their own plastic pistol models up and running well enough to try and win some contracts. Don't be at all surprised if the plethora of expensive metal-framed SIG's eventually give way to a new "flagship" service pistol, or models, at some point. Less costly to produce, support, maintain and train armorers to service & repair.
Not surprising the newer reps may not have been around in LE work when the 3rd gen guns were still in-service in big numbers.
You have to admit it guys ...
As much as some older, longtime owners & users of the S&W metal-framed TDA pistols (and the fewer numbers of DAO shooters
) might be willing to pay $1000 (and more) for a new TSW ... the guns we'd all buy wouldn't come close to generating the sales - let alone profits - of the markets being willing to buy - and demanding - plastic guns.If the Houlton plant has to make handcuffs, .22's, PPK's (for Walther's US sales) and 1911's, any machine time spent on a 3rd gen/TSW is time that can't be spent to make the other guns actually in demand, right now.
Like it or not, if it takes approx 85 seconds for Glock to pop out a completed frame ... and it takes 30 minutes of machine CNC time to make a 3rd gen frame ... how can S&W compete in the time-is-money lucrative service pistol market? (S&W's M&P frames are made by a long time vendor of plastic parts, so it saves them factory time and manufacturing space, BTW.)
I remember the last time some lightly used (one agency's T&E) factory LE .40/.45 TSW demo guns became available, and they were offered at a 1-time deal ranging from $600-$700/each. There are some folks on this forum who would quibble about paying that much for a used gun that wasn't pristine, guaranteed only used by the little old lady from Pasadena, and also complain about the lack (or type) of a box which came with the gun.
Metal guns are expensive to make compared to plastic guns. It's not like the company hasn't looked at their market demographics, reviewed sales figures for both private & LE/Gov buyers, cost of support, etc and made their decision.
Do you expect to see Glock get into metal-framed pistols? How about HK?
If S&W had been selling their TSW's faster than they could be produced, and for a price which offered them a reasonable & sustainable profit margin, they'd still be making them.
More's the pity.
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Unfortunately, no one can show what a plastic gun will look like in 100 years. Sound like a long time? Not in the life of a firearm. I've seen 100 year old Winchesters, Lugers, Broomhandles, SAA's that look like they were new last year. Probably not going to happen with a plastic gun. I'll carry my 6906 for 20 more years unless I'm dead first. Joe
James&theGiant1911
Member
Sig makes a great gun and while not the most accurate, I love their p228 and my newest p229 in .357 sig. I do not understand why that cartridge has not caught on more. A more powerful round basically adding the advantages of a S&W 40 cartridge into a 9mm. Sigs have maintained their price levels and are very good at meeting the demand for their pistols. Meaning most of what they produce are sold through immediately.
I am afraid that the Smith and Wesson pistols which we all cherish on this forum are going to continue to rise and increase in price. The days of affordable performance center and TSW pistols are long gone and are going to continue to increase in price. Like classic muscle cars or baseball cards they do not produce them any longer, they were awesome pieces when they came out. When the supply of pristine/ clean 3rd gens is lower than the demand for them then people will continue to be able to name their price on the pieces they want sold.
Can you name another firearm that has increased as much? The Browning Hi Power goes up and down, old collectable 1911s especially Colt's remain relatively flat and performance 1911s such as Nighthawks and Wilson Combats continue to sell for a thousand or more less than they were new. The only pistols increasing in prices and selling for as much as some very collectable or custom firearms are the 3rd generation smiths. It is a bear market, with so much demand that anytime any reasonable 3rd gen hits the market it is sold immediately.
I would buy everyone of them I could (given funds) in great LNIB or NIB condition.
I am afraid that the Smith and Wesson pistols which we all cherish on this forum are going to continue to rise and increase in price. The days of affordable performance center and TSW pistols are long gone and are going to continue to increase in price. Like classic muscle cars or baseball cards they do not produce them any longer, they were awesome pieces when they came out. When the supply of pristine/ clean 3rd gens is lower than the demand for them then people will continue to be able to name their price on the pieces they want sold.
Can you name another firearm that has increased as much? The Browning Hi Power goes up and down, old collectable 1911s especially Colt's remain relatively flat and performance 1911s such as Nighthawks and Wilson Combats continue to sell for a thousand or more less than they were new. The only pistols increasing in prices and selling for as much as some very collectable or custom firearms are the 3rd generation smiths. It is a bear market, with so much demand that anytime any reasonable 3rd gen hits the market it is sold immediately.
I would buy everyone of them I could (given funds) in great LNIB or NIB condition.
Don't think that SIG isn't feeling the heat from the demand created by inexpensively produced plastic pistols.
Yes, they created their SRT sear to better compete against S&W 3rd gen TSW's (according to what we were told in a SIG Classic Pistol armorer class in the mid 2000's).
Notice how SIG has become sort of a "gun of the month" maker, similar to what S&W was doing with their metal pistols when the commercial catalog still contained 3rd gen guns? Gotta do something to keep attracting the non-LE/Gov buyers, right? Finishes, styling, model variations, etc. Bottom line? Prices are getting up there, aren't they?
Also, they've been trying to get their own plastic pistol models up and running well enough to try and win some contracts. Don't be at all surprised if the plethora of expensive metal-framed SIG's eventually give way to a new "flagship" service pistol, or models, at some point. Less costly to produce, support, maintain and train armorers to service & repair.
Not surprising the newer reps may not have been around in LE work when the 3rd gen guns were still in-service in big numbers.
You have to admit it guys ...
As much as some older, longtime owners & users of the S&W metal-framed TDA pistols (and the fewer numbers of DAO shooters
If the Houlton plant has to make handcuffs, .22's, PPK's (for Walther's US sales) and 1911's, any machine time spent on a 3rd gen/TSW is time that can't be spent to make the other guns actually in demand, right now.
Like it or not, if it takes approx 85 seconds for Glock to pop out a completed frame ... and it takes 30 minutes of machine CNC time to make a 3rd gen frame ... how can S&W compete in the time-is-money lucrative service pistol market? (S&W's M&P frames are made by a long time vendor of plastic parts, so it saves them factory time and manufacturing space, BTW.)
I remember the last time some lightly used (one agency's T&E) factory LE .40/.45 TSW demo guns became available, and they were offered at a 1-time deal ranging from $600-$700/each. There are some folks on this forum who would quibble about paying that much for a used gun that wasn't pristine, guaranteed only used by the little old lady from Pasadena, and also complain about the lack (or type) of a box which came with the gun.
Metal guns are expensive to make compared to plastic guns. It's not like the company hasn't looked at their market demographics, reviewed sales figures for both private & LE/Gov buyers, cost of support, etc and made their decision.
Do you expect to see Glock get into metal-framed pistols? How about HK?
If S&W had been selling their TSW's faster than they could be produced, and for a price which offered them a reasonable & sustainable profit margin, they'd still be making them.
More's the pity.
Spot on, as always.
I don't see it as any different than any other manufacturer. Lots of car enthusiasts like the GM G-body cars from the 80's (Cutlass, Regal, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix) GM's last full frame, rear drive, intermediate car. They made lots of them and they made GM lots of money, but you don't see GM caring about them. Companies are in the business of selling stuff. If there was a huge market for $1000 TDA metal frame guns, they'd still be making them. Even SIG is branching out to other type of guns.
There is a core group that love the 3rd gen, but how many are they going to sell at $800-$1000, when you can pick up a nice used one for around $400?
And yes I love my 4003.
There is a core group that love the 3rd gen, but how many are they going to sell at $800-$1000, when you can pick up a nice used one for around $400?
And yes I love my 4003.
As I recall Sig had a polymer framed gun in the late 1990s. I had an issued 2340 and I think there was a 9mm version as well. I wasn't a big fan of it, but I had no choice.
At the show I looked at the Sig 239. Beautifully made gun, but at well over $1K, it tells us what a newly made 3rd (or 4th) generation S&W semi auto would cost.
I also looked at the newly introduced Walther CCP. It's a polymer frame, but seemed pretty nice. It will be probably a year before the MA compliant version hits the stores, but it's an option, even though it's polymer.
The truth is that I'll continue to use my 3913TSW as my primary self defense carry until something makes it unusable. At that point, I worry about what I'm going to replace it with. Given the general reliability of the the 3rd generation guns, I don't think that's going to be very soon though.
At the show I looked at the Sig 239. Beautifully made gun, but at well over $1K, it tells us what a newly made 3rd (or 4th) generation S&W semi auto would cost.
I also looked at the newly introduced Walther CCP. It's a polymer frame, but seemed pretty nice. It will be probably a year before the MA compliant version hits the stores, but it's an option, even though it's polymer.
The truth is that I'll continue to use my 3913TSW as my primary self defense carry until something makes it unusable. At that point, I worry about what I'm going to replace it with. Given the general reliability of the the 3rd generation guns, I don't think that's going to be very soon though.
First let me say I am not a Luddite . I do not expect S&W to ever make new 3rd gens for the public . I have more than I could ever wear out so it really isn't a concern. I own a couple of 7 poly guns and have no great distaste for them and I can see why the gun world is speeding in that direction . My main concern was the total washing of the hands attitude that S&W shows in maintaining service parts for the 3rd gens . I'm sure the aftermarket will step up but that will take a while and things will be Expensive .
As long as we were comparing company's (S&W to Sig) How about CZ ? They have there poly guns and 1911s a rifle line plus shot guns and still have a large line of metal semi autos . I can get service parts for my 15 year old gun with out a problem. There custom center gun are all over a grand and they seem to have no problem selling them. So there is at least one company that seems to be able to live in the poly and steel world with out much of a problem and yes I do have a couple 3 metal CZs .
As long as we were comparing company's (S&W to Sig) How about CZ ? They have there poly guns and 1911s a rifle line plus shot guns and still have a large line of metal semi autos . I can get service parts for my 15 year old gun with out a problem. There custom center gun are all over a grand and they seem to have no problem selling them. So there is at least one company that seems to be able to live in the poly and steel world with out much of a problem and yes I do have a couple 3 metal CZs .
I don't worry about my 3rd gens wearing out or breaking. I also have enough of them to last me too. More than enough actually. So I don't care what S&W is currently doing or making.
If they were to make a new production 3rd gen or even a 4th gen metal framed, hammer fired TDA 45, then I might be interested and they might have a product I would buy.
But with six years to go till retirement my 3rd gen 45's will get me there. I can't recall even hearing about a steel S&W 45XX wearing out.
If I were just starting out, I'd be looking at the Sig 227, probably the SAS version. I shot a brand new 227 for the first time Sunday. Very accurate! No malfunctions in the 100 or so rounds the new owner and I ran through it. Those E2 grips felt good too. Good looking gun with a nice trigger right out of the box. IIRC the owner paid right at $800 for it.
First time I've had gun lust for a new model handgun in over a decade. Who knows, if the P227 proves to be as durable as a 4566 over the next two years, I might end up with one. Regards 18DAI
If they were to make a new production 3rd gen or even a 4th gen metal framed, hammer fired TDA 45, then I might be interested and they might have a product I would buy.
But with six years to go till retirement my 3rd gen 45's will get me there.
I can't recall even hearing about a steel S&W 45XX wearing out.If I were just starting out, I'd be looking at the Sig 227, probably the SAS version. I shot a brand new 227 for the first time Sunday. Very accurate! No malfunctions in the 100 or so rounds the new owner and I ran through it. Those E2 grips felt good too. Good looking gun with a nice trigger right out of the box. IIRC the owner paid right at $800 for it.
First time I've had gun lust for a new model handgun in over a decade. Who knows, if the P227 proves to be as durable as a 4566 over the next two years, I might end up with one.
Regards 18DAII'd have bought a P239 during the armorer class myself if they'd been more reasonable on the LE discount. It was only available for guns ordered during the class, through the reps, and they wanted something like $650 for a standard P239 at that time. SIG's are fine guns and all, even if some of their assorted wire springs require some periodic attention for replacement, but that was a little pricey just for something to supplement my 3913 at the time.
As older 3rd gen's start to pass 10K-12K+ rounds fired, it's not unexpected that they may require a new ejector & extractor. Easy and simple repair for the factory, an armorer or a smith familiar with the guns. Simple parts to keep in stock, too.
Less common might be a worn hammer or drawbar. Older drawbars (with sharper corner cuts) might crack at either back corner or in the middle (behind the disconnector tab) after enough time & wear.
The 3rd gen's that get the most wear & tear seem to be the .40's (unsurprising).
The TSW's incorporated some features which have seemed to help reduce wear & tear issues and increase service life.
In general, replacing recoil springs helps keep guns running and reduces battering & accelerated wear. Hardly surprising. (Even in my last Glock recert the instructor made the comment that replacing recoil springs assemblies helped keep guns alive.)
Properly keeping the rails lubed helps keep guns in good condition, too (especially alloy frames).
I've have a bunch of repair/spare parts I've collected over the years, but it's not often I have to repair a 3rd gen gun. I remember when newly trained armorers had to wait and take turns for a chance to practice their skills in replacing extractors & ejectors in our aging inventory of original 3rd gen's. It wasn't until the guns were reaching 12-16+ years of service that we started seeing a small of them showing signs of needing new extractors & ejectors.
New recoil & mag springs can help prevent a number of problems when it comes to wear & tear and functioning.
So can PROPER cleaning & lubrication. Excessive solvent & oil can create its own problems ... as can lack of cleaning and lube.
As an armorer I've had to resolve significantly more problems caused by the owner/user level maintenance than by actual gun/parts problems.
FWIW, while armorers are still told to replace recoil & mag springs at the 5 year (left loaded)/5,000 rounds fired interval for the compacts (3913/4513/4013, etc), I still prefer to lean more toward replacing recoil springs at 2,500 - 3,000 rounds, or less, in my own guns of those models. I replace the mag springs closer to the normal recommendation (which may mean at every other earlier recoil spring replacement).
Just some thoughts and observations.
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But with six years to go till retirement my 3rd gen 45's will get me there.
If I were just starting out, I'd be looking at the Sig 227, probably the SAS version. I shot a brand new 227 for the first time Sunday. Very accurate! No malfunctions in the 100 or so rounds the new owner and I ran through it. Those E2 grips felt good too. Good looking gun with a nice trigger right out of the box. IIRC the owner paid right at $800 for it.
First time I've had gun lust for a new model handgun in over a decade. Who knows, if the P227 proves to be as durable as a 4566 over the next two years, I might end up with one.
Good luck wearing out a 4506/4566.
Barrels are harder to come by (the TSW's used different machining & tolerances, and even then there have been incremental revisions). Aside from maybe replacing an older staked recoil guide rod with a 1-piece unit, or maybe shooting enough to wear out an older extractor/ejector, they're pretty robust and durable.If SIG has managed to get their mag for the new .45 set up right, and finally got their .45 extractor where it ought to be for the solid slides, they ought to have a decent selling .45 on their hands. The E2 grip ought to resolve some long-standing complaints from guys with shorter fingers, too.
I'd always opt for the TDA version, myself, as the enhanced DAO (also called the DAK) just doesn't quite do it for me. Lighter trigger pull for the longer recovery position, and heavier for shorter position. I know they told us the engineers felt it was safer for cops, in case they had their fingers on the triggers after the first shot (heavier trigger for shorter trigger recovery point after initial long/light trigger pull for first shot), but it's just a bit weird for me. I'd much rather have plain old TDA. The SRT is fine, but even the standard trigger/sear is good enough.
Yea, I'm not worried about wearing out the 4566. Fortunately the two I currently own both came with the late production 1 piece rod. Thanks for the tip!
I have heard many tales of broken ejectors, particularly with the early 4516 no dash and 4516-1's. I have a few late model ejectors in my spares kit. Just in case. Thankfully I haven't needed one.........yet.
My shooting has been curtailed the last couple of years due to financial and time issues. Last year was I barely shot 2500 rounds. In fact I only made it to one IDPA match last year.
Most of my shooting is with the LE stainless, decock only, spurless hammer 4566. And occaisonally my 4506-1 "pawn shop" gun. I prefer and enjoy shooting the 4566 as that is the pistol I carry the most at work.
I have also run around 500 rounds through the 4516 no dash I picked up late last year.
Like you Fastbolt I prefer the TDA guns. THe Sig DAK and HK LEM didn't impress me. I have not shot a Sig with the SRT trigger yet. I've heard good things about it on another board.
The P227 I shot Sunday was a very impressive pistol. The DA pull was smooth with a clean break and the SA was equally crisp. I had no problems getting fast follow up shots with it. The E2 grip is a big improvement, IMO, over the older factory grips.
I'm not a Sig 220 fan having had various problems with the two I owned. Broken trigger return springs and roll pins walking out as well as some feeding issues when using the Sig 8-round mags. I also didn't care for the recoil "pulse" when shooting Ranger-T in them.
But I was impressed with the P227. It was fun to shoot and easy to be accurate with. Good build quality too. Nice finish and no tool marks could be found. First new model gun I've shot in years where I went home afterwards and thought; "what can I sell to fund buying one of those?"
If I had longer to go on the job.......... Regards 18DAI
Fortunately the two I currently own both came with the late production 1 piece rod. Thanks for the tip! I have heard many tales of broken ejectors, particularly with the early 4516 no dash and 4516-1's. I have a few late model ejectors in my spares kit. Just in case. Thankfully I haven't needed one.........yet.
My shooting has been curtailed the last couple of years due to financial and time issues. Last year was I barely shot 2500 rounds. In fact I only made it to one IDPA match last year.
Most of my shooting is with the LE stainless, decock only, spurless hammer 4566. And occaisonally my 4506-1 "pawn shop" gun. I prefer and enjoy shooting the 4566 as that is the pistol I carry the most at work.
I have also run around 500 rounds through the 4516 no dash I picked up late last year.
Like you Fastbolt I prefer the TDA guns. THe Sig DAK and HK LEM didn't impress me. I have not shot a Sig with the SRT trigger yet. I've heard good things about it on another board.
The P227 I shot Sunday was a very impressive pistol. The DA pull was smooth with a clean break and the SA was equally crisp. I had no problems getting fast follow up shots with it. The E2 grip is a big improvement, IMO, over the older factory grips.
I'm not a Sig 220 fan having had various problems with the two I owned. Broken trigger return springs and roll pins walking out as well as some feeding issues when using the Sig 8-round mags. I also didn't care for the recoil "pulse" when shooting Ranger-T in them.
But I was impressed with the P227. It was fun to shoot and easy to be accurate with. Good build quality too. Nice finish and no tool marks could be found. First new model gun I've shot in years where I went home afterwards and thought; "what can I sell to fund buying one of those?"
If I had longer to go on the job..........
Regards 18DAIApex Tactical?
I just had a thought about 3rd gen spare parts. Those who are concerned about the future availability of 3rd gen parts may want to Email Apex Tactical.
Apex has made a small fortune making parts for those m&p guns. They appear to pay attention and listen to what S&W owners want. Maybe they might make some 3rd gen parts too? Maybe, if enough interest is shown. Regards 18DAI
I just had a thought about 3rd gen spare parts. Those who are concerned about the future availability of 3rd gen parts may want to Email Apex Tactical.
Apex has made a small fortune making parts for those m&p guns. They appear to pay attention and listen to what S&W owners want. Maybe they might make some 3rd gen parts too? Maybe, if enough interest is shown. Regards 18DAI
italiansport
Member
I believe the last time I needed to replace a broken part on my 4006(drawbar) I had to order it from Brownells. I try to keep critical spare parts on hand for all my regularly used pistols and revolvers.
Jim
Jim
vigil617
US Veteran
I too have enough Third Gens to not have to worry about wearing them out in my lifetime. Still and all, though, it would be nice if S&W showed more interest in supporting these fine products from yesteryear. Maybe the aftermarket route is the way things will have to go.
In the meantime, though, I'll be perfectly happy shooting my Third Gens at the range, and shooting the breeze about them right here with the rest of you guys, both old and new to these pistols. Third Gen Life is Good.
In the meantime, though, I'll be perfectly happy shooting my Third Gens at the range, and shooting the breeze about them right here with the rest of you guys, both old and new to these pistols. Third Gen Life is Good.
loner1
Member
+1 to 18DAI above about Apex tactical. I just spent about seven months trying to obtain a simple ambi-safety lever plunger to get my 5905 up and running. Search the web for 3rd gen parts and get used to "out of stock/sold out/overdue" across the board almost.
Kudos though to the performance center who got my pistol up and running no charge at the end of the road for me but I cannot agree more that a quality outfit like Apex or the like would have a windfall of business servicing and supplying 3rd gen gun and their owners.
IMHO also put out some up-to-date CHP 4006 and WVSP 4566 pistols and watch them take a bite out of Sig's classic line (and I like Sig don't get me wrong).
Kudos though to the performance center who got my pistol up and running no charge at the end of the road for me but I cannot agree more that a quality outfit like Apex or the like would have a windfall of business servicing and supplying 3rd gen gun and their owners.
IMHO also put out some up-to-date CHP 4006 and WVSP 4566 pistols and watch them take a bite out of Sig's classic line (and I like Sig don't get me wrong).
This was the conventions first time in Indianapolis and what a great town it was. From the police to all the volunteers, they made everyone feel very welcome. So I hope to see future convention being hosted there.
Here is something I find amusing about S&W and there reps. If you have been to other manufacturer specific forums and watched a thread like this one , there would have been a rep on by now . They would either be giving a total defense of the company's stand or give us a 'lets see what we can do' answer . I notice that here we get crickets from them.
I also have enough normal service parts in stash but what I don't have is a few extra grips or the safety to convert the rest of my tsw guns to de-cock only. Scalper prices are out of the question . So with out factory support I and others are dead in the water. Here's another one , the retaining button for the mag release on the CS9/40/45 is a use once only Item reuse would be unsafe . I don't even want to think about the price of magazines.
I also have enough normal service parts in stash but what I don't have is a few extra grips or the safety to convert the rest of my tsw guns to de-cock only. Scalper prices are out of the question . So with out factory support I and others are dead in the water. Here's another one , the retaining button for the mag release on the CS9/40/45 is a use once only Item reuse would be unsafe . I don't even want to think about the price of magazines.
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