Just curious if anyone here who partcipated in the spare magazine thread has rethought it after LA riots.

[biku324]

One thing missing now is an incident command structure where the NG and Marines are engaged with LE as part of total incident rrsponse (the national standard ICS that the responders are using). That is not professional, wastes expensive resources, and gets in the way of peacekeeping.

 

[326MOD10]

18 US code section 2102 disagrees with you.

What has been happening absolutely meets the legal definition of “riot.”

Well, you would need to read that entire law to see when that definition applies and to what.

Based off just that cherry picked section a barfight with 3 people involved could apply.

But, I am no lawyer, and tend to leave it to the law enforcement on the ground to label it. And I don't mean the LE side that is trying to play politics but the actual city and county authorities dealing with the issues.

 

[TaxPhd]

My carry gun is also in no way on me to go up against anyone stealing from a large or even small business. My life is worth more to me than the stolen goods. Anyone looking to self appoint as a loss prevention advocate with deadly force needs to evaluate if they are mentally fit to carry.

If by rioters you are including the ice officers, any military force, and/or Kyle style copycats looking for trouble, my 5-6 shot revolver has no place in that exchange even with a reload.

You consider the ICE officers and military force members “rioters”?

 

[TaxPhd]

Well, you would need to read that entire law to see when that definition applies and to what.

Based off just that cherry picked section a barfight with 3 people involved could apply.

But, I am no lawyer, and tend to leave it to the law enforcement on the ground to label it. And I don't mean the LE side that is trying to play politics but the actual city and county authorities dealing with the issues.

Feel free to share the portion of the law that you believe I missed, as well as explaining its relevance. . .

 

[TaxPhd]

Well, you would need to read that entire law to see when that definition applies and to what.

Based off just that cherry picked section a barfight with 3 people involved could apply.

But, I am no lawyer, and tend to leave it to the law enforcement on the ground to label it. And I don't mean the LE side that is trying to play politics but the actual city and county authorities dealing with

California penal code section 404 PC also disagrees with you.

 

[James K]

There were bigger 'riots' at the Huntington Beach surf contests back in the 80s and 90s. I was there. Those were real donnybrooks.

 

[VincentW]

I have to wonder if anyone here who was not actively carrying a spare magazine or extra reload or two for a revolver has given any serious thought into "maybe" changing their mind. The recent riots in LA (and smaller ones elsewhere) have been in the public eye and those of us here who take SD seriously might want to look at this topic again. I am more curious about human nature here than anything else. It's OK to change our minds - I have done so on more than one occasion. Heck, I never thought I'd be carrying a micro 9 pistol over my former EDC - a M60-7.

Unfortunately, sometimes when we least expect it, trouble happens upon us - even when we thought we were going into a perfectly safe place.

If you happen to be in one of these cities, one way to avoid this is to set your GPS to avoid demonstrations. This will all be over before the end of the summer. It is just noise. If you have time, go and watch the movie " The America Miracle: Our Nation is No Accident". As long as we have religion in our government, schools, and regularly in our own personal lives, we all gain a positive perspective. My wife and I went last night, a documentary style movie about George Washington. Good stuff.

 

[326MOD10]

Feel free to share the portion of the law that you believe I missed, as well as explaining its relevance. . .

From a strictly legal definition I would say you are correct.

Like I said I don't claim to be a lawyer.

As I stated I will leave the labeling up to those dealing with it and I haven't heard it labeled a riot yet out of the mouths of LA officials.

If they label it a riot then I would tend to agree with them. But currently the situation appears contained to a limited area and the majority of folks participating have remained law abiding. That according to those on the ground.

I am done here. As stated.we can agree to disagree but if you feel the need to ask me questions I won't be bothering to respond. Life is too short to have to keep repeating the same thing.

 

[biku324]

I admit to being a bit surprised that some here don't consider the events in LA a riot. Yes under the constitution you are allowed to "peacefully assemble". Burning cars, looting, and dropping concrete blocks onto passing cars from a bridge doesn't qualify as a peaceful demonstration.

Three decades OTJ I've worked in a couple of "minor" riots. If your the guy surrounded by a hundred "protesters" trying to literate your lawfully arrested prisoner its an entirely different point of view. Have you ever been the target of hundreds of rocks and bottles thrown at you at 1 AM by a unruly crowd? With the nearest patrol car two blocks away due to the size of the "crowd"? Then had to fight your way back to the car carrying said prisoner?

If you haven't been there, done that, you don't know jack ****. Pretty freakin' simple.

In New Jersey where I worked it is defined as, "four or more participating in a course of disorderly conduct..." look up, N.J.S.A. 2C:33-1.

I'd say hundreds or thousands more than qualify.

We disagree. I've been in the police business since '79 to last December from line officer to exective, and have worked protests, riots, and mine strikes directly; I've also worked more than a decade with foreign police to improve their incident responses, often in conflict and immediate post-conflict countries with ethnic and religious hatreds that result in terrorism, property destruction, and murders (individual and en masse). What's happening in LA and breaking out nationwide is protected civil unrest, with sporadic criminality.

If the police need help, they'll ask for it, just like I have in past incidents.




Posts where Somalis tie and execute al Shabab members at Gate 4, Halane Base, at Aden Adde International Airport in Mogadishu.

 

[Sal1950]

No, because if I lived in L.A. I wouldn't be anywhere near where the protests are going on. That is why I am an old man who has never needed to draw a weapon in self defense. If I find trouble it won't be because I went looking for it.

I lived in Chicago during the 1968 riots and could watch the smoke rising up over the city from my front porch.
Yes my dad made sure we were well armed and he and my mom stayed home from work a few days.
Sadly LA doesn't have a mayor with the guts of our then Mayor Daley who issued the orders that calmed the riots in short order.
"In 1968, after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley issued orders for police to shoot to kill arsonists and to shoot to maim or cripple looters. He clarified that this order was in place to prevent arson and looting in the wake of the unrest following King's death."

 

[lawandorder]

My comments are what I believe and follow, not trying to convert anyone. We all do the best we can.

A very wise man told me one time that the U.S. will never fall to a military invasion.
He said if it falls, it will be from within.

Well estimates range from 6 million to 11 million illegal aliens in the U.S. in recent years. And the numbers are rough estimates, May be a lot more and then add in the number of longstanding illegals and the numbers exceed many standing armies around the world.

From watching the faces of the folks participating in these peaceful protests, riots, or whatever they are I would say there is universal hate for this country in all of these people. Why heck we we even have citizens who hate this country and want to see it destroyed.

Can you imagine the numbers in this little dust up being incresed by a couple of million angry people ?

The reason this does not seem like a normal ? Protest or riot to me is because seems to be the opening salvo of total anarchy in cities across the country. If it is, it will spread rapidly. I pray that I am wrong.

In my invincible ( stupid) youth I traveled and visited urban areas frequently . Cites have changed drastically for the worst.
Crime is rampant in most.

In my old age while traveling I will detour however many hours it will take me to avoid driving into the belly of the beast.

Pray for our country I feel it is in a very perilous time.


"Without the certainty of punishment there is no deterrent to crime"

 

[Wickerboots]

You consider the ICE officers and military force members “rioters”?

I’m not sure what to consider them, they shouldn’t be following Trump like he’s a king or escalating protests/baiting protesters to become anything but peaceful. There are enough videos out there at this point to have many examples of unprovoked escalation. The hypocrisy of “arresting protesters with masks” while wearing a mask isn’t excusable either. There are bad actors on all sides but there are an alarming amount in power right now without proper checks and balances.

I feel bad for all of those in uniform being pushed against their neighbors and communities right now. A uniform or position in office shouldn’t put anyone above the law the rest of us are held to.

Just as protesters are exercising their 1st to peacefully protest I’m exercising mine to think/speak critically of those in positions of power and the oligarch puppeteers.

 

[James K]

When does civil unrest become a riot is the same as asking when does a brook become a stream and a stream a river. Depends on where it is who responds. You won't find a definitive answer.

 

[YouveHadYour6]

Well, if nothing else this thread is definitely showing not even us "gun guys" can all get on the same side about the topic.

No wonder they're taking apart the Second piece by piece.

I'm going back to the vintage revolver sections.

 

[Wickerboots]

If you happen to be in one of these cities, one way to avoid this is to set your GPS to avoid demonstrations. This will all be over before the end of the summer. It is just noise. If you have time, go and watch the movie " The America Miracle: Our Nation is No Accident". As long as we have religion in our government, schools, and regularly in our own personal lives, we all gain a positive perspective. My wife and I went last night, a documentary style movie about George Washington. Good stuff.

Are you saying religion is a requirement for good? That someone can’t be moral without it? Not sure why religion would be responsible for only the positive and not also the negative it causes.

 

[Sal1950]

When does civil unrest become a riot is the same as asking when does a brook become a stream and a stream a river. Depends on where it is who responds. You won't find a definitive answer.

Why is the answer here so difficult, it's common sense easy.
Protest/Civil Unrest is marching with signs, shouting of slogans, protests.
Destruction of property and physical attacks on police and other citizens are RIOTS and they should be suppressed as quickly as possible like any other illegal activity.

 

[Wickerboots]

Why is the answer here so difficult, it's common sense easy.
Protest/Civil Unrest is marching with signs, shouting of slogans, protests.
Destruction of property and physical attacks on police and other citizens are RIOTS and they should be suppressed as quickly as possible like any other illegal activity.

It loses clarity when someone in uniform escalates or when someone not in uniform is assumed to be part of a protest. Both “sides” can have bad actors but someone looting near a protest shouldn’t be assumed a protester. I would love for it to be clear and for any/all media to be free of bias. Even finding videos privately taken during incidents can obviously be edited to deliver any bias.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

"Protected civil unrest" is nothing more than woke speak for a riot. Three different laws have been addressed in this thread. US, NJ & CA. Under those laws, this would be a riot. Is it as big as the summer of love? No, but then that went on for months because of underwhelming police response as managed by politicians. Never once did I see a pepper fogger being used. I can't believe that these large cities did not have a pepper fogger. This was of particular interest to me because I was the fogger guy in my department. That also meant being target #1. It is an effective tool in "civil unrest". I went OTJ in 1973. I absolutely cannot relate to surrendering your station house to any freaking protesters as happened in 2020. That was/is a disgrace. I just can't imagine a station Commander willing to do that.

Watching news reports on your 60" TV sitting in the living room fat, happy and safe is much different than being at the pointy end of the spear. I'll stick with my view of how policing should work.

BTW, ICE is police. They did ask for help. Stand down was apparently ordered. That is a mortal sin in police work.

 

[biku324]

Why is the answer here so difficult, it's common sense easy.
Protest/Civil Unrest is marching with signs, shouting of slogans, protests.
Destruction of property and physical attacks on police and other citizens are RIOTS and they should be suppressed as quickly as possible like any other illegal activity.

It's difficult because with large or even huge groups of people you will have large or huge variations in their actions and motivations. A completely homogenous group, all motivated by the same thing taking the same actions toward the same goal, is rare. Punishing those protesting legally identically with those attacking police or damaging property is unConstitutional. That last is law, not opinion.

My opinion is that such is also un-American.

 

[Wickerboots]

"Protected civil unrest" is nothing more than woke speak for a riot. Three different laws have been addressed in this thread. US, NJ & CA. Under those laws, this would be a riot. Is it as big as the summer of love? No, but then that went on for months because of underwhelming police response as managed by politicians. Never once did I see a pepper fogger being used. I can't believe that these large cities did not have a pepper fogger. This was of particular interest to me because I was the fogger guy in my department. That also meant being target #1. It is an effective tool in "civil unrest". I went OTJ in 1973. I absolutely cannot relate to surrendering your station house to any freaking protesters as happened in 2020. That was/is a disgrace. I just can't imagine a station Commander willing to do that.

Watching news reports on your 60" TV sitting in the living room fat, happy and safe is much different than being at the pointy end of the spear. I'll stick with my view of how policing should work.

BTW, ICE is police. They did ask for help. Stand down was apparently ordered. That is a mortal sin in police work.

What’s “woke speak”?