Just wondering

[fatcat3]

New gun owner asked me for training advice
posted by SchemaEnigma got me thinking. ( can't ya smell the wood smoke and dust ) for a number of years we have all listened to, I wouldn't trust a def. gun till I put 100,200,500,whatever rounds thought it. Better still those round have to be the ones I will be carrying. With today's ammo shortage anyone still hearing or preaching that? Not picking on anyone or trying to start trouble. If that is the standard what are the options today for a new gun/gun owner.

 

[stansdds]

Between all the first-time gun buyers, ammo hoarders, and factories cutting output due to Covid-19 restrictions, it has created a serious ammo supply problem. I can't say that I have every carried a handgun that I had not put at least 100 rounds or more through for sight in and function testing. These days, 100 rounds of ammo can be a serious investment and once you blow through those 100 rounds, where or how long before you will find another 20 or 50 rounds to use as defense ammo? I would definitely recommend buying snap-caps and perform plenty of dry firing with a new handgun. At least the new owner will be familiar with the trigger action and the lock work can wear in and smooth out.

 

[chief38]

Well, to be honest, that is something I have not thought about and something that is a bit of a quandary now that we are in the middle of an ammo shortage.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous, I have never dedicated a pistol to EDC until at least 800 - 1000 rounds have been shot through successfully. Now to clarify, the last EDC pistol I purchased for said purpose was 2 1/2 years ago and 9mm ammo was $7.50 a box of 50 (FMJ Range ammo) and carry ammo (Hollow Points) ran about $30 bucks for 50 rounds. Not only was ammo cheap, but you could get what ever you wanted pretty much anywhere they sell ammo.! Today is a totally different scenario!

So like I said above, I have not thought about this recently because I'm not in the market to replace my EDC at this point and it hasn't affect me personally. Now that you have brought it up (good question BTW) I suppose if you have what is deemed a reliable, glitch free model in general and accepted to be a good self defense model, you could shoot 250 - 300 rounds to break it in, verify reliability and practice with it for familiarity. I know that is a lot of ammo (at current prices) to throw down range, but I couldn't personally accept any less. To me that would be bare minimum.

If you are SERIOUS about ECC/CCW then it is worth it (at least to me) to spend the money and make SURE your pistol functions properly, you are familiar with it, and there are no glitches you need to deal with before making it your carry gun.

As of the last week or so, I have actually seen tons of Range ammo in stores. They are basic FMJ rounds (not major US brands though) and are selling for about $35 bucks per box of 50. Finding SD ammo is more difficult and even more expensive and I'd shoot at least 50 rounds of that particular ammo to make sure your pistol functions properly with them. Sometimes while a pistol may be excellent, it might not like a certain round for what ever reason.

So the bottom line here is it WILL be "painful and very costly" to break in and verify a new EDC gun so you need to ask yourself the question, "how much are you and your family's live's worth"? I would avoid carrying the pistol for EDC until you can do this and would opt to carry a different gun (if you have one) that you know is reliable and you have already gotten familiar with. If this is your first and only EDC gun, then all I can say is that I wish you luck finding ammo and hope you can afford to buy it - but again this is important IMO.

Good luck!

 

[Bozz10mm]

IMHO, a carry gun should have 250-300 malfunction free rounds through it before you rely on it for SD. After 250-300 rounds of fmj, run two or three mags of SD ammo through it. If all goes well, it's good to go. Any problems I've had with a new firearm, manifested themselves within the first 200 rounds.

The quandary is for the new gun owners who may not have access to 200 rounds. I'd say, it you can only find one box of 50 fmj and one box of 20 SD rounds, shoot the 50, then shoot the 20 SD rounds except for enough to fill a mag +1. Ha, in some cases, that may be only 4 or 5 rounds of SD for testing.

You don't have to have hollow points for self defense either. A new shooter could get by on the one box of FMJ minus enough for a mag +1. You gotta do what you gotta do until times get better.

 

[bigwheelzip]

IMHO, a carry gun should have 250-300 malfunction free rounds through it before you rely on it for SD. After 250-300 rounds of fmj, run two or three mags of SD ammo through it. If all goes well, it's good to go. Any problems I've had with a new firearm, manifested themselves within the first 200 rounds.

The quandary is for the new gun owners who may not have access to 200 rounds. I'd say, it you can only find one box of 50 fmj and one box of 20 SD rounds, shoot the 50, then shoot the 20 SD rounds except for enough to fill a mag +1. Ha, in some cases, that may be only 4 or 5 rounds of SD for testing.

You don't have to have hollow points for self defense either. A new shooter could get by on the one box of FMJ minus enough for a mag +1. You gotta do what you gotta do until times get better.

My thoughts exactly.

From what I've seen in the best of times, many first time owners never learn to use their firearms instinctively, or put much if any ammo through it. I wish they would at least become proficient with snap caps.

 

[tops]

My opinion is that anybody that was serious about carrying a gun had one before this shortage. People that have been around guns understand about practice and gun reliability but these first time buyers don't. The people that bought during this panic think that having a gun is being protected and shooting a bunch of ammo for any reason is wasting money. A gun and 1 box of ammo is sufficient and whether or not it works if they ever really need it will be discovered at a later date.
I have posted this before about a neighbor who many years ago bought a pistol and 1 box ammo and has never fired the gun. He is protected because he has a gun and ammo.
I have another neighbor that bought a pistol and 2 boxes of ammo and used one box for practice. He said he would probably never need the gun so there isn't any reason to waste money practicing too shoot. Larry

 

[AJ]

When I was stationed in southern Calif. We had three ranges on base, there were 22 different law enforcement agencies that used the ranges. Every one from the Secret Service down to the local PD's. I shot with most of them and helped out with a couple. The PD's had a rule that before a new gun went on the street as a duty weapon, it had to have 250 trouble free rounds through it. If it malfunctioned at round 249, the clock started again.

While in the Corps, I went to a Combat Pistol Instructors Course and a Combat Shotgun Instructors Course. These courses were a collaboration between the Corps and Lt.Col. Jeff Cooper. The pistol course of instruction was a week long and we fired 1000 rounds minimum of .45 ACP (in some cases a lot more than 1K of rounds). But over half of our time was spent in dry fire practice. Practice, practice and more practice.

There are other things that can be done to improve skills, some I learned from old time match shooters. One is to put a sharpened pencil in the barrel of a M1911 (no mag needed). Make a small dot on the wall at shoulder height (your Aim Point). With the pencil in the barrel, cock the M1911 and aim at the dot. The muzzle only needs to be an inch or so from the dot. Aim in and pull the trigger. If your sight alignment and trigger control are good the pencil lead will hit the dot. If not you'll get a new dot on the wall. Keep doing this until you hit the dot each and every time. All it costs is a #2 lead pencil. Good training and cheap.

 

[chief38]

In today's world someone who has just made the decision to EDC/CCW has a real challenge on their hands! Not only is everything super expensive, but finding what you want is even harder - even if you can afford it!

Another possibility is to buy the same gun (at least functionally and size-wise similar to your EDC) in 22 LR. While 22LR ammo has skyrocketed as well, it has not gone up in the same proportions and is still somewhat available if one looks hard enough. It will allow you to get familiar with the workings of the gun, do drills, learn shooting skills and accuracy while not spending $1 - $2 per round. Just a suggestion.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Having a limited income, I came up with a minimal reliability test to keep rounds fired to a minimum.

The first step is to determine the maximum number of rounds you're going to have on you (presuming it's a carry gun). For example, with my PX4 Compact it'd be 16 rounds in the gun and two 15-round spare mags (even though I'd normally carry one spare mag, two spares is the max I'd carry...adjust accordingly for your situation), so 46 rounds. When I go to the range, I'll fire at least that many FMJ through the gun, using my carry mags. If no issues come up, I'll repeat with JHP without cleaning the gun. With JHP, I'll shoot one-handed, left and right, and, as safely as possible, use a weak grip to try and induce a limp-wrist malfunction. If no issues come up, I'd consider the gun good to go. The process is the same whether it's a revolver or semi-auto, double- or single-stack.

While it can still be challenging to get that much ammo, it'll likely be easier than trying to get a couple hundred rounds of JHP plus however many rounds you plan on carrying.

Another option could be to manually cycle rounds from the mag. It's not the same as firing them, but it will at least let you see if the rounds will feed properly.

And, as was mentioned before, one can use FMJ for self defense. Not something I recommend, nor do most self defense firearms instructors I'm aware of, but in difficult times you may just have to do the best you can with whatever you can get, and there's a better chance that FMJ, especially with a rounded profile, will feed reliably in a semi-auto.

Just my opinion.

 

[Krogen]

I don't disagree with vetting a carry gun before trusting it. I wonder though, how many of you have guns/ammo that proved to be unreliable during the course of firing several hundred break-in rounds?

 

[Old cop]

My EDC has been a J Frame and I'm satisfied w/50 rounds of range ammo & about 25 rounds of self defense. The small auto loaders, like the LCP, normally get around 200 rounds of range & self defense ammo before I'm comfortable carrying it.

 

[Model5]

It's very tough times for all. I've had a tough time finding more carry ammo to rotate out of my edc pistols. I reluctantly just kept what I had loaded for almost a year. Usually I like to run the old through the gun and load up with new every few months. With all this that doesn't happen anymore. On top of that. My sister is recently divorced and wanted to have something more than her sr22 to carry. So she went out and got a new hellcat. I gave her a hundred rounds of fmj and enough of my spare hollowpoints for her to run a magazine to test function and then have a magnum the gun to carry. I couldn't imagine getting an new carry gun at this point and trusting only putting a hundred or somroonds through it. But also a lot of these people are new to this world completely and do not think in these terms. Most likely a good portion of these new guns will get tossed in a closet some
Loaded some not and never see the range.

 

[uncleted327]

I don't completely disagree with the sentiment here, but its gun dependent too. I don't feel that need for any of my new S&W revolvers, or most revolvers. If it fires the first cylinder its probably GTG. Quality semis like Sigs, Glocks, Smiths... again, most issues will probably rear their heads within the first few mags. If they don't who's to say what the magic number is. If your break in number is 200, 400, 800 the issues might come at 201, 401, 801 just as likely as any other arbitrary number. The guns I'm really concerned about testing are small ones like my LCP and the like, and guns like Kahrs and others that the factory itself recommends breaking in.

 

[AJ]

I don't completely disagree with the sentiment here, but its gun dependent too. I don't feel that need for any of my new S&W revolvers, or most revolvers. If it fires the first cylinder its probably GTG. Quality semis like Sigs, Glocks, Smiths... again, most issues will probably rear their heads within the first few mags. If they don't who's to say what the magic number is. If your break in number is 200, 400, 800 the issues might come at 201, 401, 801 just as likely as any other arbitrary number. The guns I'm really concerned about testing are small ones like my LCP and the like, and guns like Kahrs and others that the factory itself recommends breaking in.

Revolvers are somewhat a different story than a Semi auto-pistol. Revolvers either work or they don't. With extended they generally get broken in (read action gets smoother). Semi Autos need a break-in period and you get this by shooting them, which makes them more reliable. Sometimes you will have to smooth a feed ramp or throat a barrel (on M1911's), sometimes some trigger work, but semi autos can be quirky, so they need a break-in period. The folks that have said this are saying it because of experience. Peoples lives are on the line when a police gun does not function.

 

[oldiegoldie]

i'm sticking with the carry guns i've been carrying for years. they've proved themselves reliable long ago. i've bought a few pistols that i would like to carry, but they are just going to have to wait. i'll fire a few magazines through the new ones just to see if they are what i was expecting. i have been buying laser training cartridges. won't replace going to the range, but it's better than doing nothing.

 

[AJ]

And, as was mentioned before, one can use FMJ for self defense. Not something I recommend, nor do most self defense firearms instructors I'm aware of, but in difficult times you may just have to do the best you can with whatever you can get, and there's a better chance that FMJ, especially with a rounded profile, will feed reliably in a semi-auto.

Just my opinion.

FMJ will stop a self defense problem as well as most ammo. The military has been using it for years to good effect. Hollow points are good and sometimes they even expand as advertised. Have seen enough rounds recovered to put my money on shot placement. Put the rounds into the proper area on the target and you will end the fight rather quickly.

 

[mikerjf]

Any gun is a huge benefit in a crisis. Testing is nice, but IMO a user who is quick and confident at malfunction-clearing is more important than 1-out-of-x reliability.

 

[TX-Dennis]

In all my years of shooting I've only had one gun that failed in its "break-in" period. It was a Sig Sauer P938 on which the trigger stopped working at about 150 rounds. Of course Sig repaired it under warranty, and it has been reliable since. They said the sear pin had come out.

I have a Bersa that failed in a similar way, but it was after several thousand rounds. That time the "e-clip" that keeps the trigger bar attached had come off. It actually happened twice, and the second time, knowing what the problem was, I replaced it myself rather than sending it in. I've also had one pistol that failed due to a broken firing pin and another with a broken extractor - again after many thousands of rounds fired.

 

[Autonomous]

I don't disagree with vetting a carry gun before trusting it. I wonder though, how many of you have guns/ammo that proved to be unreliable during the course of firing several hundred break-in rounds?

Two brand new defective S&Ws. Two that were my fault but learned through said vetting process. One was limp wristing another was a jam due to a partially peeled casing due to forcing a cartridge with an UpLULA mag loader.

 

[Autonomous]

On a tight budget ball ammo is probably better than premium hollow points you can't afford to vet. Even with ball you still need to to run a couple boxes through a pistol, less for a revolver.

 

[ContinentalOp]

FMJ will stop a self defense problem as well as most ammo. The military has been using it for years to good effect. Hollow points are good and sometimes they even expand as advertised. Have seen enough rounds recovered to put my money on shot placement. Put the rounds into the proper area on the target and you will end the fight rather quickly.

True, but I'm more concerned with FMJ's propensity for overpenetration compared to JHP. While generally not an issue on the battlefield, there have been several instances of FMJ exiting bad guys with enough energy to seriously injure bystanders and/or fellow good guys.

 

[AJ]

True, but I'm more concerned with FMJ's propensity for overpenetration compared to JHP. While generally not an issue on the battlefield, there have been several instances of FMJ exiting bad guys with enough energy to seriously injure bystanders and/or fellow good guys.

Would rather have a problem with overpenetration then lack of penetration. The FBI lost a couple of agents in April of 86 due to lack of penetration by a 9 MM. If it had been hardball the shot might have stopped the bad guy before he killed the agents.

One thing that my Grandfather taught me was use a big heavy bullet when you are trying to bring home some food. He used a .35 Remington and in it he stoked it with 220 grain soft points. Why? Because he could not find any bigger bullets for the rifle.

 

[tops]

One year before deer season I was going too shoot my M77 Ruger one time too see if it was still on. It was good but I decided to see how close I could get with the next shot. I decided too try a third shot and the gun wouldn't fire. I rushed to the local gunsmith and he fixed it while I waited. That was years ago and it's still working. I was glad I tried that third shot.
One day I was shooting a M29-2 at a target and when I quit I loaded it and put it in the holster and carried it for several days. When I tried shooting it again the trigger wouldn't pull. For several days I was carrying a gun that wouldn't work. If I had really needed the gun it would have got embarrassing in a hurry.
Guns are like everything else. If you use it enough it will finally break. Larry

 

[Echo40]

Frankly, I've never subscribed to the sentiment that one needs to shoot hundreds of rounds through any given firearm in order to ascertain reliability to begin with. It strikes me as a dated sentiment which really doesn't apply to modern firearms designs produced by reputable manufacturers.
Generally speaking, most modern firearms, or heck, firearms designs which date back to the 1980s, tend to be 100% reliable right out of their box, and those that aren't simply need to be properly cleaned/lubricated to get all the gunky factory preservative out prior to being fired.

Personally, as long as my carry gun can get through a single magazine of defensive ammo without a malfunction, then that's enough for me to trust it because that's the most rounds I'm likely to fire off in real-life should I ever have to defend myself from an attacker.
If other folks feel more secure firing off 500 rounds or whatever, then that's their prerogative, and depending on what they carry, might even be a good idea. But I'm not carrying a brand with a factory recommended break-in period like Kahr or a Kel-Tec, nor some high dollar custom 1911 with such tight tolerances and so little clearance between moving parts that it's liable to choke on dust/lint, so I'm not worried about that.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Would rather have a problem with overpenetration then lack of penetration. The FBI lost a couple of agents in April of 86 due to lack of penetration by a 9 MM. If it had been hardball the shot might have stopped the bad guy before he killed the agents.

The round in question was specifically designed for rapid expansion and shallow penetration. The current crop of JHP (HST, Gold Dot, Ranger, etc.) all provide good penetration without the overpenetration risk of FMJ, and have established good track records in actual shootings.

I think it's safe to say we're not going to change each other's minds on the subject. Apologies to OP for sidetracking the discussion from the original topic.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Personally, as long as my carry gun can get through a single magazine of defensive ammo without a malfunction, then that's enough for me to trust it because that's the most rounds I'm likely to fire off in real-life should I ever have to defend myself from an attacker.

FWIW, that was the basis of the rationale for the testing protocol I mentioned above.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Interesting discussion.

Any gun I take to the range, carry gun or not, is unlikely to be simply fired with just a very few rounds. Especially a carry gun. But for reliability I'm content with just a couple of magazines shot at targets at a couple of reasonable distances. Likely I'll shoot more than that but if I was concerned about wasting ammunition then at least two full magazines (revolvers get a couple of cylinders and then I'm done).

Unless I came to play, of course, and shoot shoot shoot. Then 50 rounds per gun is likely.

I need to know two things. Did it handle 20 rounds? Good to go. Do I know its point of aim? Fine. But the latter is secondary since I figure up close and personal is going to be the rule rather than the exception in a confrontation.

And I have no qualms about carrying hardball in my pistols even though I prefer hollowpoints. If it works I'm fine with it.

 

[Bozz10mm]

I don't disagree with vetting a carry gun before trusting it. I wonder though, how many of you have guns/ammo that proved to be unreliable during the course of firing several hundred break-in rounds?

I've had 3 that got off to a rocky start in the first 200 rounds. A Shield 9, an XDm 3.8 compact in 45 ACP, and the latest, a Springfield 1911 Ronin in 45 ACP. They are all solidly reliable now.

 

[Ziggy2525]

New gun owner asked me for training advice
posted by SchemaEnigma got me thinking. ( can't ya smell the wood smoke and dust ) for a number of years we have all listened to, I wouldn't trust a def. gun till I put 100,200,500,whatever rounds thought it. Better still those round have to be the ones I will be carrying. With today's ammo shortage anyone still hearing or preaching that? Not picking on anyone or trying to start trouble. If that is the standard what are the options today for a new gun/gun owner.

I'd be more concerned about the new gun owner only having 20 or 50 total rounds of experience than the reliability of the pistol.

IMO, if the pistol is an M&P, an S&W J/K frame revolver, a Glock, or an HK, and it's reliable with 50 rounds of ball and 20 rounds SD ammo, it will be reliable for the 10 more rounds someone might need for self defense.

 

[swsig]

I don't disagree with vetting a carry gun before trusting it. I wonder though, how many of you have guns/ammo that proved to be unreliable during the course of firing several hundred break-in rounds?

I have a Shield 9 with over 5,000 rounds through it that has had persistent failure to eject and occasional failures to to feed throughout its history. A trip back to the factory didn't help. I had given up on it, and carried my M&P 40c or my Shield 45 instead. After a year of not firing it, I wondered if I could rehabilitate it by finding some self-defense ammo that would work with complete reliability. My criterion was that an SD round would have to fire a minimum of 200 times without a failure before I would trust my Shield as a carry pistol. Fortunately, after much testing, I found two rounds that met that standard. To date, Hornady Critical Duty 135g +P (387 rounds), and Federal HST 147g (225 rounds) have worked perfectly, so I now have enough confidence in my Shield 9 to carry it with those rounds. However, since my 40c and my Shield 45 are much more accurate than my Shield 9, they are what I carry. But it's good to know I could carry my Shield 9 if I needed to.