Justice perverted

So, to sum up the "they're all guilty" theory.

Better a hundred innocents go to jail than one guilty person get off. :rolleyes:
I don't always get things right off so, I'm thinking this is sarcasm.

On the same note, I'd like to point out the flaw in this kind of reasoning. Once an innocent is jailed, the search for the guilty stops. Thus, the one guilty guy ALWAYS gets off as we put any number of innocents in prison.
 
Dick, you're wrong. You're wrong on general principles of Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence going back to at least the Magna Carta and maybe back to the Roman roots of the system; wrong on foundational American political theory about the criminal legal process and the rights of the parties; wrong on the general ethics of the process, and certainly wrong on the judicial ethics rules, and those applicable to attorneys. This is truly conduct that shocks the conscience.

I've been a cop and a prosecutor in two states. I have served as a part time judicial officer in a small city a few times, covering for a friend who had conflicts or had to be elsewhere. My token defense work was for a friend's kid who got a traffic ticket - the trooper who wrote it is a mutual friend and actually gave me a ride home after court. More than a few people, including judges, have told me I would be a good judge especially in the appellate setting. I have a pretty good idea of the roles of each party in the courtroom.

We all have roles, and we need to stick with them. A prosecutor is an advocate, but is also "a minister of justice". Obtaining justice, not merely getting convictions is our duty and an ongoing goal. Do things get sideways? You bet. We have a mandate to try like hell to be right in what we do, though. One of my tats is a scale of justice framed by "RPC (rule of professional conduct) 3.8" on the top, and "Do Justice" on the bottom. It matters, and any prosecutor (or defense attorney) who would accept conduct like this needs to be disbarred and prosecuted too (and that's the polite, lawful version). Anyone who knew and didn't report it, too. Have I had off the record chats with judges and opposing counsel after a case is over about the state of the law, and our view of the case? Hell yeah. Many. Might have even been mentored on trial practice, or told a judicial officer that I thought they were flat out wrong. That's allowed, and part of how we all learn. Can't do anything that looks like that while the decision is pending though.

BUT: a judge is supposed to be neutral and detached. Are they? Probably not - everyone has biases and views, and judges are human (well... sorta):D. Actions such as this cannot be taken with a case pending. This is such a perversion of the judicial code of ethics that she should NEVER be able to practice law or anything like it. I heard a case as a judge (bench trial, no jury) that made me crazy (crazier:eek:), because I knew damned well the defendant was doing something that he should not have been. I even believed that I could rule in that manner without personal consequences. I did not do it, because ruling on the evidence is the duty of a fact finder, and the evidence did not support finding the offense committed. (Part of the problem being that the city ordinance was badly written and way out of date, which could not be fixed in that setting.) I may have told off the defendant after ruling in his favor, in front of the officer, prosecutor, and defense attorney, but I made the decision I was mandated to make.

We have a state constitutional provision in WA that a judge cannot comment on the evidence. In essence, this is part of keeping the process not only fair, but appearing fair to all watching or involved. There is a specific pattern jury instruction for criminal cases warning the jury to disregard it if they got the impression that the judge was commenting on the evidence when making a ruling. That's one of the reasons that some objections are argued outside the presence of the jury. Telling a jury that it is in deliberations anything but the legal standard to apply? Unacceptable. Any contact outside the courtroom, with both counsel and the defendant present? Hell no. Texting "tips" about the conduct of the case? Not in a zillion years. This anal pore has defecated all over the rights of the defendants, on the rules of the system, and the expectations of all citizens that the people in the system will stick to their roles and the rules that apply.:mad:

I assume the worst of people. I am rarely proven wrong. That's the reality of our system. Most of the people who come in as defendants are guilty. Overwhelmingly. BUT: that's for a jury to decide, based on the law and the evidence. That's why we have a jury - to protect the defendants from bitter old guys like me.
 
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I have realized that most of us are working on the assumtion that because she resigned that she'll get to walk. Maybe not. I'm sure that there is some sort of investigation going on. With all the attention this is getting, I also sure the investigation will be quite thorough and take some time. Who knows, charges may be filled somewhere down the road.
The wheels of justice may turn slowly, but they do turn.
 
I don't know Dick but I have a feeling that he might be apologizing for posting after having one too many rose water rickys.
 
I'm sorry to disagree with you guys. No where in the discussion did I hear anyone suggest that a criminal defendant was wrongly convicted. It does seem the prosecutor wasn't up to speed, and that the judge was significantly more aware of what they should have been doing and asking. But no where is there the suggestion the criminals weren't guilty. She just helped put the bad guys away. Maybe she's missed her calling and should become a law professor.

Where I come from, we kind of want the bad guys in jail or at least convicted. I thought the standard of justice in Texas was to give them a fair trial and then hang them! :D There is an implication that the trials weren't fair because the judge had her thumb on the scales. But now it seems more like she was just making sure the prosecutor presented a better case than he was able to do on his own. I don't see where she was cheating the criminal. If he was innocent, maybe there'd be a reason to raise some stink. No suggestion that was what took place, she was just training the boy.. :)

I admit that if I were on trial, I'd hate having questions asked that nailed me. But I'm not seeing the questions as being out of line, just that she was helping a maybe incompetent prosecutor do his job.

I disagree totally. The judge has to remain impartial and cannot even meet with one party or the other alone, much less send them tips on how to handle their case. Sorry, that is illegal and should be.

Her action may well free many of those guilty as they now have reason to appeal their conviction. She is a judge, not a prosecutor and not a law professor.

Given the prosecutor has the full power of the state and investigation power of the police at his disposal, and most of these criminals have some court appointed attorney that is over worked and usually under skilled, the game is already tilted against the defendant.

If you now put the judge on the prosecutor’s team there is no justice. Why even bother with a trial if we just presume they are all guilty before hand.

In fact a rigged trial is far worse than no trial as it give the appearance of justice while being nothing but a sham in the guise of justice and draped in the robe of our legal system. Like the show trials of the old Soviet Union.

This is just about as bad as it gets.
 
I am an attorney.
For better or worse, the administration of Law is what keeps people from eating each other alive.

Apart from the interference in particular cases, which is bad enough,
behavior like this by even one Judge causes the public to lose faith in the Judicial system.
 
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US Attorney General Homer Cummimgs - "The duty of a prosecutor is not to convict but to see that justice is served." This is sometimes forgotten by law enforcement and prosecutors.
 
US Attorney General Homer Cummimgs - "The duty of a prosecutor is not to convict but to see that justice is served." This is sometimes forgotten by law enforcement and prosecutors.
Well, here we go. I wasn't going to get into this, but I guess I changed my mind. I think that the above quote supports rburg, although I kind of doubt that it was intended to, either by Cummings or by jag312.

While the guilty judge's conduct was highly improper, illegal, and unbalanced, the question (?) still remains whether it ever caused or would even be thought to cause a wrong verdict. Of course, it smells, and immediately makes one wonder whether she would do the same for the defense if it seemed called for, but the previous sentence still seems correct.

I don't see anything wrong with rburg's post as it stands. And I've already read all the replies. Appearance? Bad. Improper and, presumably, illegal procedure? Of course. Perverting actual justice? I see no evidence of that.
 
Well, here we go. I wasn't going to get into this, but I guess I changed my mind. I think that the above quote supports rburg, although I kind of doubt that it was intended to, either by Cummings or by jag312.

While the guilty judge's conduct was highly improper, illegal, and unbalanced, the question (?) still remains whether it ever caused or would even be thought to cause a wrong verdict. Of course, it smells, and immediately makes one wonder whether she would do the same for the defense if it seemed called for, but the previous sentence still seems correct.

I don't see anything wrong with rburg's post as it stands. And I've already read all the replies. Appearance? Bad. Improper and, presumably, illegal procedure? Of course. Perverting actual justice? I see no evidence of that.

You, and I, have no idea what information was sent from the bench to the prosecution!!! Whatever it might have been - it was WRONG. If I were one of the innocents who had been found guilty in her court............you can bet your last dollar I would have an appeal going NOW....

The judge was in the JURY room!!!!!!!!!!!!

Along with my comment to rburg.........

YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!!!
 
You, and I, have no idea what information was sent from the bench to the prosecution!!! Whatever it might have been - it was WRONG. If I were one of the innocents who had been found guilty in her court............you can bet your last dollar I would have an appeal going NOW....

The judge was in the JURY room!!!!!!!!!!!!

Along with my comment to rburg.........

YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!!!
I'm quite serious. I read the original link, and I recall that it reported the information being as rburg described it. Of course, it was wrong, even WRONG! As far as innocents being found guilty, there seems to be NO evidence that that is what happened, which was rburg's whole point, which I agree with.

The issue (for me, and presumably for rburg) is that violation of procedure, even grossly inequitable violation of procedure, which is probably what happened in these cases, does not necessarily lead to convictions of innocent people. It appears that in these cases, it most likely didn't.

You, of course, are entitled to a different opinion, but you are not going to convince me of your opinion merely by stating it. Rather, you would have to explain exactly how this wrong, inequitable and, one would hope, illegal behavior actually leads to conviction of an innocent person. Examples might help, although I could probably understand an abstract legal argument, if it actually had substance.

Perhaps I haven't been convinced by the few lawyers posting on this, because lawyers, and to some extent LEOs, tend to focus on procedure, and appealable violations of procedure, rather than guilt and innocence, at least more than most non-lawyers. That may be OK, but it wasn't what rburg addressed, and I still think he's right.
 
Calm down folks, we dont want this thread locked. To slightly change something Paul Harvey signed off with: "I wanna know what the rest of the story is?"
 
Perverting actual justice? I see no evidence of that.

Judges are not in the Justice business, they are in the law business and there is a huge difference. Police that fake evidence believe they are in the justice business. Judges that use their position to influence juries or to aid prosecutors may be in the justice business but they are paid and sworn to be in the law business.

This judge violated the basis of what a judge is. The judge is there to judge and to referee, not to prosecute. The part where she actually went in to the jury room to tell jurors how to find is so far out of line as to be criminal, not just bad judgement.

As is her history of siding with the prosecutor. We now don't know if any of those men were guilty or just guilty of being in front of the wrong judge.

I would think prosecutors that failed to report her actions are to be sanctioned and fired also.
 
The problem isn't that she may have helped jail an innocent. The problem is we don't know if she helped jail an innocent. Judge decides on the evidence provided. If the prosecution is obviously missing things or is totally incompetent, the attorneys boss should be notified. I can even see the judge ordering a new attorney to work the case, but not clandestine coaching. Something public, like " are you going to discuss xxx xxx, or not" would even be preferable to the secret cell phone, known only to the judge, the prosecutor, and NSA. Telling a jury how to vote seems like a really extreme act. Makes a jury trial worthless.
 
Well, here we go. I wasn't going to get into this, but I guess I changed my mind. I think that the above quote supports rburg, although I kind of doubt that it was intended to, either by Cummings or by jag312.

While the guilty judge's conduct was highly improper, illegal, and unbalanced, the question (?) still remains whether it ever caused or would even be thought to cause a wrong verdict. Of course, it smells, and immediately makes one wonder whether she would do the same for the defense if it seemed called for, but the previous sentence still seems correct.

I don't see anything wrong with rburg's post as it stands. And I've already read all the replies. Appearance? Bad. Improper and, presumably, illegal procedure? Of course. Perverting actual justice? I see no evidence of that.

You agree it was judicial misconduct, improper and illegal, but you still attempt to maintain that all of those facts have no affect on the level of Justice administered? That a system that allowed and functioned this way was just? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
You agree it was judicial misconduct, improper and illegal, but you still attempt to maintain that all of those facts have no affect on the level of Justice administered? That a system that allowed and functioned this way was just? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
As far as guilty getting sentenced, and innocent getting off, that's what it looks like so far.
 
http://www.waprosecutors.org/MANUALS/Quest/Quest for Justice 2008.pdf. This is actually shorter at only 193 pages and has less citation to authority than the first edition, which I have in print (it's not on line any longer as far as I know). Jeff is a friend and an expert. He is now a judge :mad: and as he did for us, teaches ethics. I'll trust his opinion on such issues far more than anyone else on the planet.
 
Judges are not in the Justice business, they are in the law business and there is a huge difference....This judge violated the basis of what a judge is. The judge is there to judge and to referee, not to prosecute. .

That's it in a nutshell. Even a Dahmer or a Manson is supposed to be entitled to a fair trial in this country, and the judge is there to see that happens. This isn't the land of the kangaroo court or the drumhead court martial.
 
If the prosecution is obviously missing things or is totally incompetent, the attorneys boss should be notified. I can even see the judge ordering a new attorney to work the case, but not clandestine coaching.

*
As a side point, while a judicial officer may be able to notify a supervisor in the prosecutor's office of problems perceived with a trial attorney's conduct, skill, whatever, there is virtually no way for a judge to order a new attorney in to the case. It is a serious violation of the separation of powers doctrine and efforts to do so have resulted in some pretty scathing appellate rulings. It would in fact be another form of judicial misconduct in most cases. (And, for the record, that's a piece of arcana that I would not expect anyone outside the field to know; I've been involved in a couple of cases where such efforts were attempted for various reasons and thus have been exposed to the legal standard.)
 

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