K-22 second issue questions

[valbehaved]

Hello, everyone.
I have been looking at a rare second issue K-22, which appears to have been refinished many years ago. It has a diamond stamp under the grip, on the lower left rear corner of the frame and a 1 60 stamped on the left side of the front strap of the frame. There is no slash between the 1 and the 60, but there is extra space between the 1 and the 60. There is no rework star anywhere on the gun.
Would the above markings indicate a factory refinish done in January of 1960?
Unfortunately, I have no pictures.
Thank you!

 

[Göring's S&W]

Would the above markings indicate a factory refinish done in January of 1960?

Not necessarily. The date code could indicate parts replacement or repair. Often times replaced parts have a "diamond" stamping. There may have been a refinish, but the date code by itself is often not enough to say.

Does the gun appear to be refinished? Often a factory refinish is indistinguishable from the original factory finish.

 

[rct269]

The "1 60" is almost certainly a service date (January 1960). "Service" means just that----no further meaning is implied. I believe the <> mark denotes the piece affected---<> on the barrel means new/straightened/honed/otherwise messed with barrel. Ditto for <> on other parts----except the frame. I believe a <> on the frame means the entire gun was refinished. All these things I believe are just that----beliefs------not necessarily facts. The reason being I see too many exceptions. One such exception is a gun I know was sent back for refinishing at a point in time when such was marked/indicated on the gun. I know the customer requested no marks on the gun. There are NO MARKS on the gun.

Another case on point. I have a K-22 which was sent back in April of 1960 for refinishing (from matte to high polish ("bright blue")), and for "action tuning" (for lack of a better term). The frame carries these marks 4 60 and s<>. Does s <> mean it was refinished (INCLUDING a change in finish from matte to bright)----or does it mean it was refinished AND something else was done? I think those are pretty good questions, I have no answers. I have another one-----a very early M&P target----has a date stamp on the frame, 3 13 maybe. That's it, no other marks (beyond the usual fitting/inspection stuff). The gun has a checkered trigger. There's no mention of a checkered trigger in the letter. This gun was delivered to a S&W employee----so the letter goes on beyond the typical letter----with both fact and speculation. I figure a checkered trigger is a fact that would've been mentioned if it was shipped that way. I also figure this gun has not been refinished----just because (and the "just because" is backed up by 60 years of sitting and staring at these things). You may believe whatever you wish.

Bottom Line: My belief is your gun was refinished in January of 1960. I suspect many others will/would believe the same. Does that make it so?
Nope!!

Ralph Tremaine

In the for what it's worth category, I have seen service marks thus: 160------1 60---------1.60--------1-60------I have never seen one with a slash.

 

[valbehaved]

I will try to post some pictures later today.
The gun is finished in a very glossy high polished blue and has wear that had been there for at least 50 years and super crisp edges and lettering - so if refinished - it would have been a long time ago.
Would a high polished finish be correct for a second issue K-22?
Or a more matte finish was originally applied?
Thank you!

 

[THEMULE]

Second issue?

What does that term mean? How can you tell? From what I've read/been explained, serial number sequence is not a sure way (I think???).

 

[Göring's S&W]

Would a high polished finish be correct for a second issue K-22? Or a more matte finish was originally applied?

The finish would be high gloss on a K22/40 HOWEVER, if it was refinished in Jan 1960, a high polish finish would have been applied then as well. The matte finish was standard post war for a number of years beginning in the 1946/47 time frame (for most models), when the post war models started shipping. The matte finish as standard for K masterpiece guns ended sometime in the 1950s.

Here is an original finish K22/40....

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/318264-happy-73rd-birthday-k-22-5-24-40-a.html

 

[valbehaved]

The gun has a notch in the hammer, a micrometer click rear sight and a serial number in 691xxx range...

 

[Göring's S&W]

The gun has a notch in the hammer, a micrometer click rear sight and a serial number in 691xxx range...

That all sounds correct although I do not have the correct SN range memorized. The notch in hammer is a reference to the then new "short action" and the gun also introduced the then new "micrometer" rear sight. In addition, the gun should have patent dates on top of the barrel (no rib - ribs debuted after WWII) and the front sight should be a patridge with a silver bead, although I would think there were other types of optional front sights available. The front sight is taller than the K22 1st models to compenstate for the height difference of the new micrometer rear sight.

 

[paplinker]

The gun has a notch in the hammer, a micrometer click rear sight and a serial number in 691xxx range...

If that gun is 691394 i have the grips for it.

 

[DWalt]

From a previous posting on the topic of refinish markings: "Diamonds/circles: were stamped on replaced parts or heel of grip frame on left side for refinish followed by letters, sometimes in a rectangle or diamond, B (blue), N (nickel), or S (standard/blue) with an R (for refinish), on 'heel' of left side of grip frame."

691xxx would probably be from mid-1940. There were just over 1000 of the second model K-22s made in 1940.

 

[rct269]

Bottom Line: While I realize everyone has their own bottom line, mine is rarity trumps condition----including refinishing (factory refinishing at least). Accordingly, I'd SNAP that sucker up----right now!!

And who knows, maybe a better one will come along. My first one was SCRUFFY. I bought it anyway. My second one was SPECIAL!!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[valbehaved]

pics added

SN is 7 digits away from your grips!
Here are the pictures...
The seller states that the pin above the left grip is slightly slightly dished. Also, some pitting on the right side of the side plate possibly blued over? Hard to see in the pics. Other than that - everything looks great. Price is pretty steep at $2300...Or is it?
Any thoughts?

 

[valbehaved]

more pics attached

 

[valbehaved]

final pics attached

 

[glowe]

I do not see anything that would suggest a refinish . . . unless it was a factory job?? Usually, if a major external part was replaced, it would require a re-blue. Check for the diamond under the barrel on the flat, between the yoke and the frame, under the stocks on the butt-frame, and on the rear of the cylinder. you may have a beautiful original gun there and if so most any collector would be proud to own it.

 

[JSR III]

Gun looks good to me. If it was refinished in 1960 she looks real good and I don't see any over buffing signs anywhere. That gun is older than me and looks to be in much better shape.

To me a factory refinish or replaced or upgraded part is merely part of this particular guns history. Does not come anywhere close to a bubba chrome job or pins removed and replaced with a sledge hammer like some guns I have seen.

I would buy that gun all day long. What is the price range if you don't mind my asking. I own 632482 shown in my avatar and paid over 2K for it.

 

[paplinker]

SN is 7 digits away from your grips!
Here are the pictures...
The seller states that the pin above the left grip is slightly slightly dished. Also, some pitting on the right side of the side plate possibly blued over? Hard to see in the pics. Other than that - everything looks great. Price is pretty steep at $2300...Or is it?
Any thoughts?

The grips i have are pre war magnas and are more likely what came on the gun you are interested in. I would ask if the grips are numbered and original to the gun. If not it could help with the negotiations.

 

[wheelgun610]

Something here just doesn't add up. That hammer sure doesn't appear to me to be a 2nd model style hammer. Looks like a first model hammer to me....

Mark

 

[wheelgun610]

The grips i have are pre magnas....

You mean pre-war magnas?

Mark

 

[paplinker]

You mean pre-war magnas?

Mark

typo ..oops that would make a difference.

 

[DWalt]

I think the hammer looks OK. Those were short-action however. I do not know if the 2nd Models came with pre-war Magnas, or with the standard 1930s style stocks pictured, or if you could have either one. Does the stock SN stamping match that of the gun? If so, the round top service stocks should be original. If not, it's a problem in originality.
---------------------
I checked the 1944 Gun Digest (which uses the last pre-war S&W catalog). It indicates that the K-22 could be ordered with either round-top or Magna stocks: "Choice of Square or Magna type" The catalog picture shows it with the 1930s-style round-top stocks. It also states in the text that it has the short action, so it is definitely a K-22/40 they are talking about. And the hammer style shown in the picture is the same, not the postwar "fish hook" type or a humpback.

 

[S&W ucla]

Maybe replacement of stud accounts for dished pin as part of repair in 1960? It doesn't looked buffed down just replaced to me.

 

[BigBill]

Let's clear this up with factory repairs.

I feel if the revolver has been repaired by the original manufacturer it's ok. Your buying the best condition action wise. I think it's a good think. It's like buying a car that's has a maintenance report. We know it's exact condition.

Years ago some didn't like the repair stamps on the stock of the Swedish mausers. I say the more it's been pulled out of service and repaired the better condition the rifle is in. I'm shooting 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds using new sellier & bellot ammo. With iron sights(no scope). She was repaired four times in the past 107 years?

I feel with the history in repairs were buying the best used gun we could purchase.

 

[wheelgun610]

I think the hammer looks OK....

Here's a 2nd model hammer. The pic is from the link posted by member "Göring's S&W" above.

Mark

 

[paplinker]

I think the hammer looks OK. Those were short-action however. I do not know if the 2nd Models came with pre-war Magnas, or with the standard 1930s style stocks pictured, or if you could have either one. Does the stock SN stamping match that of the gun? If so, the round top service stocks should be original. If not, it's a problem in originality.

Pre war magnas are what i see on most posts about these second models. Thats why i mentioned to the OP about the service grips shown in his pics. I would guess some K service grips could be out there in mid 1940 but would not expect near as many.
I cannot see the step on the hammer either but camera angles may be the reason. I would try to get a positive id on that.

 

[valbehaved]

I see.
I don't see a notch on the hammer of the gun I have posted... So is the hammer correct for this variation?
Or was it replaced?

 

[DWalt]

The picture in the 1944 GD makes it appear that there is a notch. But I cannot be 100% sure, as the picture quality is not great. Sure is something that should be checked out.
____________________________
Makes me wonder, if the hammer was replaced by S&W in 1960, what hammer did they use as a replacement for the original? And why was the original hammer replaced? I am not sure if one of the earlier long-action hammers even would have fit.

 

[wheelgun610]

I see.
I don't see a notch on the hammer of the gun I have posted... So is the hammer correct for this variation?
Or was it replaced?

The hammers aren't interchangeable between the 1st and 2nd model K-22's. What does that mean in regards to the one you're looking at? Hmmm.... I'm sorta wondering if maybe the one you're looking at is actually an Outdoorsman (1st Model K-22) and the rear sight has been changed. That seems like a possibility to me....

Mark

 

[DWalt]

The hammers aren't interchangeable between the 1st and 2nd model K-22's. What does that mean in regards to the one you're looking at? Hmmm.... I'm sorta wondering if maybe the one you're looking at is actually an Outdoorsman (1st Model K-22) and the rear sight has been changed. That seems like a possibility to me....

Mark

Except for the fact the SN is in the correct range for a K-22/40. Exactly what was the purpose of the hammer notch, and is it possible that some K-22/40 hammers (maybe late ones) did not have the notch?

 

[410bore]

The hammer is NOT correct for a 22/40. Its a long action hammer.