guitar1580
Member
Are all K frame models safe for +P, even older guns?
Do +P guns have that stamped on them?
Thanks, JP
Do +P guns have that stamped on them?
Thanks, JP
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K frame and +P rounds
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Texas Star
US Veteran
Sort of. If there's a Model no. on the frame, they're okay for Plus P. But later ones prob. have improved steels and heat treatment. Some J-frames are marked as Rated for Plus P, but no K-frames, I think.
Keep in mind that heavy use of Plus P will increase wear, esp. cylinder endhake. Some deny this, but I've seen some loose guns, and the USAF cited this as a reason why they wanted 9mm autos, prior to adoption of the Beretta M-9.
T-Star
Keep in mind that heavy use of Plus P will increase wear, esp. cylinder endhake. Some deny this, but I've seen some loose guns, and the USAF cited this as a reason why they wanted 9mm autos, prior to adoption of the Beretta M-9.
T-Star
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
There are differing opinions on this subject. Naturally, I think I have the correct one.
1. Factory +P is loaded well below maximum allowable chamber pressure. It is not a "hot" load. The typical +P is a 125 JHP at 925 FPS. Big whoop. A good target load in my opinion. The whole "+P" thing is marketing hype. I hear stories of a friend of a friend's gun shooting loose with +P but since this load is so mild, and so far below allowable pressure, I have a hard time understanding how this is possible.
2. Many folks use the model number as a guide, as in, if it has a model number stamped on it then +P is OK. But what is different about the first gun with a model number and the last without it? Nothing. No changes were made in the design or materials. They are the same gun save for the presence of the model number.
I use the year 1930. This is not a hard and fast date but is my best estimate. Prior to the middle 1920s the tempering of steel was an imprecise science. The Titanic may have sunk due to improperly tempered hull plates that tore open under pressure from the collision. I figure that if I use 1930 then I am safe.
Alloy or steel frame, J or K frame, I have no concerns whatsoever about factory +P (which is not a hot load anyway, remember) in a S&W made after 1930. Below is a 1942 Military & Police Model that was already well worn and much used when I got it. It is pictured with the 500 rounds of Remington +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125@1150 FPS) that I fired through it to see if anything would happen. It came as absolutely no surprise to me when nothing happened at all.
I think +P is all hype and unworthy of all the hand-wringing. Others will issue dire warnings about +P. You do what makes you happy.
1. Factory +P is loaded well below maximum allowable chamber pressure. It is not a "hot" load. The typical +P is a 125 JHP at 925 FPS. Big whoop. A good target load in my opinion. The whole "+P" thing is marketing hype. I hear stories of a friend of a friend's gun shooting loose with +P but since this load is so mild, and so far below allowable pressure, I have a hard time understanding how this is possible.
2. Many folks use the model number as a guide, as in, if it has a model number stamped on it then +P is OK. But what is different about the first gun with a model number and the last without it? Nothing. No changes were made in the design or materials. They are the same gun save for the presence of the model number.
I use the year 1930. This is not a hard and fast date but is my best estimate. Prior to the middle 1920s the tempering of steel was an imprecise science. The Titanic may have sunk due to improperly tempered hull plates that tore open under pressure from the collision. I figure that if I use 1930 then I am safe.
Alloy or steel frame, J or K frame, I have no concerns whatsoever about factory +P (which is not a hot load anyway, remember) in a S&W made after 1930. Below is a 1942 Military & Police Model that was already well worn and much used when I got it. It is pictured with the 500 rounds of Remington +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125@1150 FPS) that I fired through it to see if anything would happen. It came as absolutely no surprise to me when nothing happened at all.
I think +P is all hype and unworthy of all the hand-wringing. Others will issue dire warnings about +P. You do what makes you happy.
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GF
SWCA Member
Can we make Sax's post a sticky and put it on every +P thread?
GF
GF
stiab
US Veteran
Below you can read what S&W says on the subject. There is info in both the 2nd and 3rd columns. Hopefully it is legible, if not PM me and I'll email you a larger copy.
Doug.38PR
Member
It is pictured with the 500 rounds of Remington +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125@1150 FPS) that I fired through it to see if anything would happen. It came as absolutely no surprise to me when nothing happened at all.
"to see if anything would happen"? LOL!! You mean like you're hand blowing apart with the gun? No big deal?
The way you said that sounds like you enjoy taking chances.
Are you saying you fired ALL of that +P and +P+ ammo through that gun? Or just a few dozen rounds to convince you it's okay? In other words, might you be stressing that cylinder with every +P or +P+ round you put through it until finally it will burst under the stress?
I'm just asking. I don't necessarily disagree with you, I've read your thoughts on this and similar subjects before and find them quite interesting.
I have an old box of .38 Spl. Hi-Speed that Remington states on the back of the box "Use ONLY in S&W Heavy Duty or Outdoorsman revolvers" In other words, NO K Frames. That stuff is pretty much in between modern +p and +P+ isn't it?
Let me ask this, what is the "maximum factory" pressure? How does it (for .38 Spl) compare to .357 Magnum loads that are sold on the market? (something definately not recommended for refitted K frame .38s and even limited use on M-19 K frames)
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TheKySharpshooter
Member
First off that is a beautiful revolver! I agree about the +P being a little overhyped as I've not seen any ballistics that make me say "Wow!" when I look at them.There are differing opinions on this subject. Naturally, I think I have the correct one.
1. Factory +P is loaded well below maximum allowable chamber pressure. It is not a "hot" load. The typical +P is a 125 JHP at 925 FPS. Big whoop. A good target load in my opinion. The whole "+P" thing is marketing hype. I hear stories of a friend of a friend's gun shooting loose with +P but since this load is so mild, and so far below allowable pressure, I have a hard time understanding how this is possible.
2. Many folks use the model number as a guide, as in, if it has a model number stamped on it then +P is OK. But what is different about the first gun with a model number and the last without it? Nothing. No changes were made in the design or materials. They are the same gun save for the presence of the model number.
I use the year 1930. This is not a hard and fast date but is my best estimate. Prior to the middle 1920s the tempering of steel was an imprecise science. The Titanic may have sunk due to improperly tempered hull plates that tore open under pressure from the collision. I figure that if I use 1930 then I am safe.
Alloy or steel frame, J or K frame, I have no concerns whatsoever about factory +P (which is not a hot load anyway, remember) in a S&W made after 1930. Below is a 1942 Military & Police Model that was already well worn and much used when I got it. It is pictured with the 500 rounds of Remington +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125@1150 FPS) that I fired through it to see if anything would happen. It came as absolutely no surprise to me when nothing happened at all.
I think +P is all hype and unworthy of all the hand-wringing. Others will issue dire warnings about +P. You do what makes you happy.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I was never worried about anything happening. Factory +P will not overly stress a S&W cylinder. I guess I should have said "to prove what would happen" (which was nothing) rather than "to see what would happen."
Yes, I shot all 1,100 rounds through the gun pictured. No increase in B/C gap or detectable end shake.
It sounds like that ammo you have is a 38/44 loading which is substantially more powerful than +P. A forum member once posted that he fired a bunch of 38/44 ammo (again, MUCH more powerful than +P) through his duty M&P in the late 1950s without effect. Elmer Keith wrote of shooting 38/44 ammo in an alloy Chiefs Special (J frame, pre-M37) in 1955 without effect to the gun.
Max for 38 Special is 21,500 PSI. The +P is loaded to 18,000. Standard 38 is now 16,000 (truly wimpy). The 357 Magnum is 35,000.
The K frame Magnum issue is another discussion. Just let me say that I have a Model 19 made in 1970. For 18 years it was federal agent's duty weapon. I have owned it for the past 22 years having bought it from the retired agent. He says the gun was never fired with anything other than full power 125 JHP Magnum loads. That's all I have fired in it. It's still like new. What do we do, now?
Member Stiab insists on doing what S&W says (actually, it's what their lawyers say). Can't go wrong that way. But they also advise against using any reloaded ammo. Is that also a good idea?
Like I said, everybody must follow his own instincts. If you worry about +P, believe it to be a powerful load, think it will harm a quality made gun, then don't use it. I have done a considerable amount of research on this matter and concluded that +P is exactly what it seems to be: a load that is 3,000 PSI below maximum. How can that be harmful?
Yes, I shot all 1,100 rounds through the gun pictured. No increase in B/C gap or detectable end shake.
It sounds like that ammo you have is a 38/44 loading which is substantially more powerful than +P. A forum member once posted that he fired a bunch of 38/44 ammo (again, MUCH more powerful than +P) through his duty M&P in the late 1950s without effect. Elmer Keith wrote of shooting 38/44 ammo in an alloy Chiefs Special (J frame, pre-M37) in 1955 without effect to the gun.
Max for 38 Special is 21,500 PSI. The +P is loaded to 18,000. Standard 38 is now 16,000 (truly wimpy). The 357 Magnum is 35,000.
The K frame Magnum issue is another discussion. Just let me say that I have a Model 19 made in 1970. For 18 years it was federal agent's duty weapon. I have owned it for the past 22 years having bought it from the retired agent. He says the gun was never fired with anything other than full power 125 JHP Magnum loads. That's all I have fired in it. It's still like new. What do we do, now?
Member Stiab insists on doing what S&W says (actually, it's what their lawyers say). Can't go wrong that way. But they also advise against using any reloaded ammo. Is that also a good idea?
Like I said, everybody must follow his own instincts. If you worry about +P, believe it to be a powerful load, think it will harm a quality made gun, then don't use it. I have done a considerable amount of research on this matter and concluded that +P is exactly what it seems to be: a load that is 3,000 PSI below maximum. How can that be harmful?
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OP
guitar1580
Member
Thanks for the great replies, folks. Very informative, and helpful to me. Sorry if it's beatin' a dead horse for some. I'm new, and I like to acquire the true facts.
JP
JP
photoman
Member
CorBon 110gr JHP (Sierra bullet, not DPX) is real close in velocity to the old Super Vel...around 1100 to 1200fps. Nice ammo.
stiab
US Veteran
No I don't. For example, I shoot +P in my 1970 Model 60, +P+ in my 940, and 38 Super in my Model 28. I just posted what S&W says on the subject so folks can know.
Doug.38PR
Member
but isn't that because it's a very light weight bullet? 110 gr instead of 158 gr.
Doug.38PR
Member
If you like hot stuff and want a .38/44 type round (some would say even hotter) go to Buffalo Bore Ammunition | Strictly Big Bore - Strictly Business Their .38 Spl+P 158 gr Lead Hollow Point or Hollow Cavity bullet gets close to 1175 ft per second out of a 4 inch barrel. It's essentially a low level magnum load http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
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Texas Star
US Veteran
Some Plus P ammo DOES use 158 grain bullets.
And I think that Dr. Pig is wrong about no difference in the steels in guns with Model numbers and those made before. Read the reproduced S&W pages! 1958 was the year when Model numbering appeared. (Maybe '57; I'm going by the S&W instruction sheet shown in this thread.)
Also, in, "Handgunner's Guide", by Chic Gaylord and printed about 1960, the author says that S&W told him that they were using a new, stronger steel from the time that the heavy barrel M&P/Model 10 arrived.
I was told in the 1960's by S&W's sales manager that the Model 10 wouldn't blow up with .38/44 ammo, but that it would shake the gun loose far sooner than normal .38 ammo. He strongly suggested getting a .38/44 or a .357 if I routinely needed more power than standard .38 Special loads. (I was very young at the time, but recall that letter clearly.) Plus P ammo wasn't yet on the market, and the .38/44 guns hadn't been discontinued. That came a year or so later.
I should probably mention that I have been writing to gun companies and editors since I was 13. I have also read a vast
amount on the Plus P issue. They wouldn't make the stuff if it wasn't safe to fire in high quality guns. I do use it when it seems called for. But all of my guns are of modern make and are Rated by the manufacturers for such use. I don't fire it routinely in casual range sessions. Nor would I shoot small game with it. It isn't needed, and ruins too much meat on rabbits and squirrels. I would suggest using Plus P if you have to shoot coyotes, bobcats, beaver, porcupines, larger raccoons etc. with a .38. (Porkies and beaver may not be legal for handgun hunting, but if you get lost, you may need the meat.) I saw a big badger shot once between the shoulders with a .45 auto, and the experience left me feeling the need for a .357 if I might have to shoot a badger!
Plus P is mostly defense ammo, and it will deliver more effect on target than will standard speed ammo. Bullet designs are also usually more effective.
I think that Plus P is a terrific idea. I just wouldn't use it in older .38's. Saxon Pig and Mike Venturino have, in 1940's guns. They still have all of their fingers. But by the time one shoots maybe 5,000 rounds through an older M&P, I wouldn't be surprised to see a cracked cylinder or endshake.
I just wouldn't fire it at all in guns made much before WW II.
Some do, I bet. But some people ride on bald tires, or drive drunk.
T-Star
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Why would S&W start using "stronger steel" with the beginning of the model numbers? The +P was still 30 years away at that point and nobody was having any problems with the available ammo. S&W didn't do things for fun, especially expensive material changes. I do not believe S&W made any changes to their guns when model numbers appeared other than stamping the numbers.
Stiab, sorry. Let me correct myself. Member Stiab suggests being aware of what S&W has to say about +P. Better? I would add that S&W (like most corporations) is paralyzed with fear of lawsuits and will always recommend excessive caution in ammo selection. They do this on advice of counsel to protect themselves.
I have brochures printed by S&W in the 1970s offering ammo for sale that far, far exceeded current +P pressures and velocities. But that was before civil attorneys made such things impossible to sell. Below is copied the text regarding S&W ammo from my rather lengthy treatise on P+. Compare the velocity on that 125 load to the current +P's 925 FPS.
"I have a copy of the specifications for S&W/Fiocchi ammo that was packaged with new guns that appears to have been printed in 1970. It lists the 158 lead .38 Special load at 910 FPS. It also includes a 158 JHP at 1140 FPS (equaling the mighty 38/44 load), a 125 JHP at 1380 FPS and a 110 at 1390 FPS."
Apparently in 1970 S&W saw nothing wrong with these loads (any of which makes the current +P load look exactly like what it is: a total wimp) but now they worry about the feeble and anemic +P in a gun made in the 1970s. Why the change? Ask their lawyers.
djohns6- The +P means increased chamber pressure for added velocity. But +P is marketing hype and a myth. The +P is only +P when compared to the truly pathetic standard ammo they now offer.
Stiab, sorry. Let me correct myself. Member Stiab suggests being aware of what S&W has to say about +P. Better? I would add that S&W (like most corporations) is paralyzed with fear of lawsuits and will always recommend excessive caution in ammo selection. They do this on advice of counsel to protect themselves.
I have brochures printed by S&W in the 1970s offering ammo for sale that far, far exceeded current +P pressures and velocities. But that was before civil attorneys made such things impossible to sell. Below is copied the text regarding S&W ammo from my rather lengthy treatise on P+. Compare the velocity on that 125 load to the current +P's 925 FPS.
"I have a copy of the specifications for S&W/Fiocchi ammo that was packaged with new guns that appears to have been printed in 1970. It lists the 158 lead .38 Special load at 910 FPS. It also includes a 158 JHP at 1140 FPS (equaling the mighty 38/44 load), a 125 JHP at 1380 FPS and a 110 at 1390 FPS."
Apparently in 1970 S&W saw nothing wrong with these loads (any of which makes the current +P load look exactly like what it is: a total wimp) but now they worry about the feeble and anemic +P in a gun made in the 1970s. Why the change? Ask their lawyers.
djohns6- The +P means increased chamber pressure for added velocity. But +P is marketing hype and a myth. The +P is only +P when compared to the truly pathetic standard ammo they now offer.
stiab
US Veteran
I have those same brochures, and the S&W numbers are clearly bogus. They used one ammo marketing brochure until 1978, when the industry testing procedures changed away from unvented test barrels (11 inches in the .357 mag). In 1979 they started using a new ammo brochure which said "Note that the velocity and energy figures are based on actual guns, not test barrels."
In the one year difference between the brochures (the same year that test barrels were no longer allowed), the velocities dropped over 20% in most loads. For example, in 1978 and before they said the .38 Special 110 grain JHP +P ran at 1380 FPS. The next year the same load was listed at 1050 fps from a 4" Model 10.
When the testing procedures changed, 'truth in advertising' became a requirement. Manufacturers could no longer market their ammo using those unrealistic numbers that users had no chance of achieving in their sidearms.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
OK, assuming you are right, a 20% discount from 1380 still leaves it at over 1,100 FPS or 175 FPS over the much feared +P at 925. Anyway you slice it there was ammo being offered in the 1960s and 1970s that was considerably hotter than current +P and nobody was fussing about it.
The same situation occurs in the reloading manuals. Through the early 1970s many loads were listed for the 38 Special that duplicated the 38/44 and some that took the 125 bullets to 1,300+ FPS (from an actual 6" barrel according to the published info). I have used these loads and gotten similar results in my guns so I believe them to be close to accurate. By around 1980 these top loads start to vanish from the books and the maximum loads drop year by year until they reach the current anemic levels. The same liability fears that fuel the gun and ammo companies drive the publishers of reloading manuals.
We've been over all of this before. More than once. Believe what you like. Do what you think is best. I have researched this issue extensively and feel that I know the facts. But I will add the following to my conclusions:
"S&W Forum member Stiab disagrees with these findings."
The same situation occurs in the reloading manuals. Through the early 1970s many loads were listed for the 38 Special that duplicated the 38/44 and some that took the 125 bullets to 1,300+ FPS (from an actual 6" barrel according to the published info). I have used these loads and gotten similar results in my guns so I believe them to be close to accurate. By around 1980 these top loads start to vanish from the books and the maximum loads drop year by year until they reach the current anemic levels. The same liability fears that fuel the gun and ammo companies drive the publishers of reloading manuals.
We've been over all of this before. More than once. Believe what you like. Do what you think is best. I have researched this issue extensively and feel that I know the facts. But I will add the following to my conclusions:
"S&W Forum member Stiab disagrees with these findings."
