K38, V-prefix serial, United States Property marked

[MelvinWalker]

The SCSW mentions nearly all WW II Victory Models being finished "similar to Parkerizing". Do you have a reference to document these being blued?

Yeah, I thought "Black Magic" was simply a proprietary manganese phosphate finish itself. "Parkerizing" was a trademark to the inventor of the process and thus couldn't be used as a term by S&W?

 

[CapeFearElvis]

The V prefix guns started production in April 1942 and production ended in 1945. Very similar guns in the commercial SN series (with the phosphate finish) were made starting in 1941, and the very last military contract guns were very similar to early postwar examples, but the latter resumed the blued finish and omitted the butt swivel (lanyard ring).

I found this in my Blue Book of Gun Values (43rd ed) that mentions a "Black Magic" finish. This pistol looks parkerized to me; could it be the Black Magic finish??

 

[CapeFearElvis]

I do know the difference between collectibles and junk. I learned from one of THE collectors---Ray Cheely. The difference is three things:

CONDITION---CONDITION-----and CONDITION!!!

The reason I told you to count your blessings for the holster is because of its condition.

Any and everything that looks like it's new, or damn near new is what you want to take home with you-----including even G.I. holsters---if such as that is your interest---and every now and then even if it isn't.

CONDITION--CONDITION--CONDITION!!!

The bottom line of all this condition business is top condition collectibles either hold their value or appreciate over time. Lesser condition items d

A top condition collectible is to be admired----never mind what it is.

Ralph Tremaine

Thank you, Ralph! Nice hit on the resale of the pistols too!

This holster looks to be USGI, and it is old, however, I've been corrected that it's likely a British holster.

There is a stamp inside the flap, but it's time-faded, and I can't make out what it said. Here are a couple of photos of the holster alone:

 

[murphydog]

Yeah, I thought "Black Magic" was simply a proprietary manganese phosphate finish itself. "Parkerizing" was a trademark to the inventor of the process and thus couldn't be used as a term by S&W?

That is my understanding but always open to learning.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

That's a nice revolver, for sure, but the holster was mentioned above this post. Is that a brand new one from the Army/Navy Surplus store? That's a nice for woods & field workouts.

Not that I know of. This pistol has been in this holster for decades prior to their nearly 90 year-old owner passing in recent months...

 

[murphydog]

Thank you, Ralph! Nice hit on the resale of the pistols too!

This holster looks to be USGI, and it is old. There is a stamp inside the flap, but it's time-faded, and I can't make out what it said. Here are a couple of photos of the holster alone:

In general the US military didn't use canvas holsters. Many cows sacrificed for the war effort.

This one reminds me of the "pattern 37 Enfield" holster, or a similar one made to fit the longer barreled S & W.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

Only a very, very small number of the wartime revolvers were phosphated (Parkerized). About one week's production. Very early production BSRs were finished in the pre-war civilian blue style with highly polished metal. That was a very slow and inefficient process. They also used civilian checkered wood grips with silver medallions. Under pressure to greatly increase production, S&W ceased polishing and went to a wire brush metal treatment, then to a bead blast treatment, and that is what was used on the vast majority of ALL WWII M&P revolver production. The blued finish used on them was completely unlike the pre-war S&W finish. It used a hot liquid bluing bath, very similar to the way most guns are blued today. It was called Black Magic, sometimes referred to as Military Midnight Black. The Australians did use a phosphate finish when their revolvers were overhauled in the 1950s.

.38/200 was somewhat of a slang or shorthand term for BSRs, not as an official name for either the revolver or its ammunition. But it was widely used. For that matter, "Victory" and "BSR" were not used as official names either.

All this has been discussed here in detail many times previously.

These two photos came from the 43rd edition of Blue Book of Gun Values. One mentions Black Magic, the other parkerizing:

 

[MelvinWalker]

Thank you, Ralph! Nice hit on the resale of the pistols too!

This holster looks to be USGI, and it is old. There is a stamp inside the flap, but it's time-faded, and I can't make out what it said. Here are a couple of photos of the holster alone:

It looks like a standard British/UK issued holster for a Webley or Victory to me.

The clip set-up on the rear of the holster is for a British web belt not USGI.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

This one reminds me of the "pattern 37 Enfield" holster, or a similar one made to fit the longer barreled S & W.

Wow! It sure does look like the pattern 37 gear! Here's the link I'm looking at:
British Commonwealth Pattern 37 Webbing (1940s – 1950s) | KommandoPost.com | KPS Militaria Collection

 

[CapeFearElvis]

It looks like a standard British/UK issued holster for a Webley or Victory to me.

The clip set-up on the rear of the holster is for a British web belt not USGI.

You're right. Alan set me straight above.

 

[Retired W4]

Thank you, Ralph! Nice hit on the resale of the pistols too!

This holster looks to be USGI, and it is old, however, I've been corrected that it's likely a British holster.

There is a stamp inside the flap, but it's time-faded, and I can't make out what it said. Here are a couple of photos of the holster alone:

Upon close inspection of photo #3 the inside of the female part of the snap is marked United Carr. the rest of the mark is just outside of the field of view. That might give you a clue to country of origin.

 

[Retired W4]

Charles Pate always comes through for me. A must have book for anyone interested in WW II handguns.

This one is stamped 1942.

 

[Retired W4]

Like I said, the holster is the cherry on top. Very nice package. Now you need the lanyard and some WW II 38-200 ammo, made by the Brits of course.

 

[2152hq]

There was a small belt pouch for extra ammunition that went along with those canvas holsters. A nice accessory as well. Then the belt itself of course.
Different colors for the different branches of service.

(Don't forget some 'Blanco' to keep it in top looking form too!)

These canvas holsters and accessorys like everything else were crazy cheap just a few years ago. Like new orig holsters for the Enfield or S&W 38 were around $10.
The light blue color RAF holsters, ammo pouches, etc seemed to be in greater supply .

Now the originals are getting tough to find and repros of them are on the market.


Those long lines on the bbl of the V are nothing but the profile milling cutter lines from when the bbl contour of the bbl shape is machined.

I have several 'In the White' S&W production bbls that are at that stage of mfg where they still have some machining marks but have had their Bbl markings rolled onto them.

They would normally have gone to the polishers at that point and with their careful attension and specialty hard contour polishing wheels,l the remaining machine marks removed and the markings not disturbed. or washed out.
\
War time production likely meant just a quick pass over the markings leaving the image of some of the machining cut lines in tact. Outside of the roll markings, the polishers could take more material down, not having to be concerned with the markings.
A somewhat coarse polish was all that was needed to get the guns ready for final applied finish,,assembly and out the door.

 

[50 target]

Lots of information and useful comments. I haven't seen any response to one particular marking which the OP listed. That of a small p. I have only seen this on one other S&W and can't remember if it wS a martial or civilian model. Very well done and feel it was applied at factory.
Anyone have knowledge of the. P. Stamping.

 

[DWalt]

Regarding blued finish, one source is from Carl Hellstrom's wartime production notes. It is fairly clear that the only Parkerized revolvers were 2187 DSC Guns shipped in mid-1942.
https://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-h...odel-wartime-changes.html?121046=#post1285775

This is the Black Magic bluing finish product that S&W used during the war: https://www.hubbardhall.com/product_bulletin/black-magic-infusion-2?dl=1

There was also an article in the S&W CA Journal maybe 7 years ago that discussed the Victory finishes which I have no access to. I guess the myth of Parkerized finish on Victories still lives on like a zombie. And Black Magic has no similarity to Parkerizing. Most gun manufacturers had switched to the "Black Magic" type hot oxide bath blued finish before WWII. Ned Schwing's book "Winchester Slide Action .22 Rifles" provides a very detailed discussion of Winchester's hot oxide bath bluing process used by them in the 1930s.

The "p" is a proof mark.

Somewhere, I have one of those British canvas holsters, no idea where it is now. I think I bought at an estate sale for a dollar or so. I think it was designed to be used with every revolver type ever used in British service, not just the WWII BSRs. I remember that several years ago, IMA was selling the blue canvas RAF holsters for around $10. They may have been replicas, I don't remember.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

Like I said, the holster is the cherry on top. Very nice package. Now you need the lanyard and some WW II 38-200 ammo, made by the Brits of course.

Thank you so much! I really didn't know what I had on my hands when it first dropped in my lap. I mean, it was clearly a S&W, but not like one I had seen (I'm a Model 67, 686, and 29/629 guy).

Yeah, that's just what I need, another caliber to spend money on! Holy moly!

There may be some old ammo stored away somewhere in my mother-in-law's home, but I won't be back there for a couple of weeks. I'll see what turns up - seems like she also had a small break-action revolver in .32, but I just can't remember.

Thank you again for your insight.

 

[DWalt]

Back shortly pre-Covid, there was quite a bit of South African .380 Mark II ammo being sold. Original British and Canadian .380 revolver ammo has been scarce for quite awhile, at least I have seen none in shooting quantities. Even new commercial .38 S&W ammo is tough to come by and expensive today.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

Upon close inspection of photo #3 the inside of the female part of the snap is marked United Carr. the rest of the mark is just outside of the field of view. That might give you a clue to country of origin.

The bottom side of that piece is stamped CANADA

 

[DWalt]

I imagine that basically identical holsters were made and used throughout all of the British Commonwealth countries during the war and later

 

[CapeFearElvis]

Back shortly pre-Covid, there was quite a bit of South African .380 Mark II ammo being sold. Original British and Canadian .380 revolver ammo has been scarce for quite awhile, at least I have seen none in shooting quantities. Even new commercial .38 S&W ammo is tough to come by and expensive today.

I hear you, but I don't think this is going to be fired by me. It doesn't look to have been fired as near as my non-expert eyes can tell save maybe a couple of test-fires at S&W.

There is no powder residue on the top strap above the forcing cone, nor are there any marks or pitting on the area of the strap where it's normally seen when firing a revolver. The breechface, upon a MUCH closer inspection, shows an ever-so-slight mark of a round being fired, and yet there was no powder residue in any of the "normal" places when I cleaned the pistol. Everything behind the side-plate looks new, though the gun has clearly been disassembled in the past.

I think I'm going to just leave it like it is...

 

[CapeFearElvis]

Charles Pate always comes through for me. A must have book for anyone interested in WW II handguns.

This one is stamped 1942.

A closer look in better light allowed me to see what appears to be "1940" on this holster. I can clearly see the "40" part - see photo

 

[CapeFearElvis]

Regarding blued finish, one source is from Carl Hellstrom's wartime production notes. It is fairly clear that the only Parkerized revolvers were 2187 DSC Guns shipped in mid-1942.
https://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-h...odel-wartime-changes.html?121046=#post1285775

This is the Black Magic bluing finish product that S&W used during the war: https://www.hubbardhall.com/product_bulletin/black-magic-infusion-2?dl=1

There was also an article in the S&W CA Journal maybe 7 years ago that discussed the Victory finishes which I have no access to. I guess the myth of Parkerized finish on Victories still lives on like a zombie. And Black Magic has no similarity to Parkerizing. Most gun manufacturers had switched to the "Black Magic" type hot oxide bath blued finish before WWII. Ned Schwing's book "Winchester Slide Action .22 Rifles" provides a very detailed discussion of Winchester's hot oxide bath bluing process used by them in the 1930s.

The "p" is a proof mark.

Somewhere, I have one of those British canvas holsters, no idea where it is now. I think I bought at an estate sale for a dollar or so. I think it was designed to be used with every revolver type ever used in British service, not just the WWII BSRs. I remember that several years ago, IMA was selling the blue canvas RAF holsters for around $10. They may have been replicas, I don't remember.

More great info! Thank you!

 

[Retired W4]

The bottom side of that piece is stamped CANADA

Ah Ha. Like DWalt said...all part of the British Common Wealth.

 

[Retired W4]

One more opinion on ammo for your gun. It would be really great if your MiL has some British or Australian Mk II ammo, but I think Remington/UMC would be correct as well. The Brits et al packaged their stuff 12 rounds to a "box". If it were my gun and I had some of the Commonwealth stuff it would be for display only

Just checked Ray Giles in Dallas. He HAD a box of Mk I but he sold it, for $195.
No Mk II..

 

[Dave_n]

Some of the web holsters for the 38/200 used to have cartridge loops on the outside of the flap. Often used in the Western Desert by armoured troops as the little cartridge case could come adrift. Dave_n

 

[MelvinWalker]

Some of the web holsters for the 38/200 used to have cartridge loops on the outside of the flap. Often used in the Western Desert by armoured troops as the little cartridge case could come adrift. Dave_n

Yep, there are dozens of high quality repo's on Ebay of that cartridge loop holster that you mentioned...$35 or so usually. I think they fit a Webley or a Victory.

 

[VASCAR2]

Ammo is still available especially if your willing to purchase on line. SG Ammo has PPU and Remington 38 S&W in stock. Target Sports USA and Graf and Son are other potential sources online.

I'd want a box or two of ammo if I never planned on shooting the Dandy S&W.

Cheap bulk 38 SW Short Ammunition for sale | SGAmmo.com

38 S&W - Handgun - Ammo - Graf & Sons

 

[Model19man]

Brownell's has the Magtech brand too: MAGTECH AMMUNITION SPORT SHOOTING 38 S&W AMMO

 

[CapeFearElvis]

One more opinion on ammo for your gun. It would be really great if your MiL has some British or Australian Mk II ammo, but I think Remington/UMC would be correct as well. The Brits et al packaged their stuff 12 rounds to a "box". If it were my gun and I had some of the Commonwealth stuff it would be for display only

Just checked Ray Giles in Dallas. He HAD a box of Mk I but he sold it, for $195.
No Mk II..

Wow! That's like trying to buy 38-40 Winchester or M2 Ball ammo. That's crazy!