Key Holing 9 MM

[AJ]

A friend was shooting some 130 grain cast over 3.5 grains of Bullseye. He had a Beretta 92, a Taurus and a S&W 39. In the first two he had multiple key holed shots in the target at 15 yards. With the 39, he had none. I shot five of his rounds in my 39 and while they grouped alright, I had one key hole.

I was shooting 147 grain cast over 3.5 grains of Bullseye. None of my rounds key holed in my 39. He tried the loading in his Beretta and it function fine with no key holes.

Best guesses are welcome. My first thought is he needs to up the powder to maybe 4.0 grains.

 

[rockquarry]

Upping the charge would certainly be worth a try.

What is the measured-with-micrometer bullet diameter?

 

[AJ]

Upping the charge would certainly be worth a try.

What is the measured-with-micrometer bullet diameter?

No clue as to the measurement. Will ask him if he knows.

 

[max]

I loaded some lead 9's once and they were sliding along the rifling and not spinning. Either too hot or too small or a bit of both.

 

[rockquarry]

Regarding bullet diameter...some 9mm pistols may shoot well with .355" or .356" cast bullets, but I've found a larger diameter, .357" or .358" usually works better as for accuracy and for the prevention of leading, at least in a Beretta, a Sig, and a Walther. As with cast bullets in rifles, the largest diameter bullet that will allow a cartridge to be chambered without difficulty will usually be the best choice.

 

[505Gibbs]

The dia. may be the 'key' to the issue over all else though the load does sound awful light.

 

[Fishinfool]

Agree with the above posters. I would bet a combination of undersized bullet, and not enough powder charge to bump the undersized bullet up enough to let it grip the rifling. I'll bet he had some leading in the barrel to clean out. I have always had my best luck with the 9mm using as big a diameter bullet as will allow chambering, casting hard, and using a gas check on problem guns that lead.

Larry

 

[stansdds]

9x19 bore and chamber dimensions seem to vary a whole lot. Now it could be too light of a powder charge and the bullet is not sealing the bore or the rifling twist is not stabilizing it, but it could also be the bullet is too small in diameter for the Beretta and Canik. Lead bullets sometimes do not do will in barrels that have shallow rifling.

 

[rockquarry]

What is a Canik?

 

[M29since14]

My older Beretta 92F does best with .357" jacketed bullets, so there is no doubt in my mind it would prefer at least that big, or bigger, in a cast bullet. I have a friend who uses cast bullets as big as .359" in his S&W 3913, but he does not push them too hard. I'd certainly try at least a .357" bullet and see if that helps with the keyholing issue.

(Edit) I'm guessing of course, but I don't see the powder charge as a problem. I use 4.0 of 231, also a bit light, and have never had a keyhole, that I recall. I'd guess bullet diameter. Might check the barrel for leading, good crown, etc.

 

[Alk8944]

Since they were cast bullets of "unknown provenance", I assume, the bullets may have internal flaws resulting in imbalance. Or they could be undersized. Never assume that commercial cast bullets, or private cast, are the diameter the seller/provider says they are! I have seen cast bullets as much as .005" under the claimed diameter. This applies to commercial jacketed, plated or coated bullets too.

Worst case I have seen is some European "bagged" jacketed bullets bought at a gun show that were supposed to be for .30 Luger. They measured .302". I have had them for probably 40 years, still in the bag I bought them in. I still have no idea what cartridge/gun they would be appropriate for!!!

 

[Nevada Ed]

Regarding bullet diameter...some 9mm pistols may shoot well with .355" or .356" cast bullets, but I've found a larger diameter, .357" or .358" usually works better as for accuracy and for the prevention of leading, at least in a Beretta, a Sig, and a Walther. As with cast bullets in rifles, the largest diameter bullet that will allow a cartridge to be chambered without difficulty will usually be the best choice.

+1 on the beretta
but my C9 does not like coated 125gr bullet over .356 dia.
The .358 dia samples would not chamber in my 3.5" pistol
but they work great in me .38 special.

and yes, that 3.5 gr load of Bullseye is way low !!

 

[murphydog]

What is a Canik?

It's a Turkish company that makes a variety of semi-automatic pistols. There is an extensive writeup of these in the current American Handgunner magazine.

 

[Luke Duke]

Ive never had good luck shooting cast in a 9mm. But the limited amount of marginal accuracy has been with over sized bullets .357 or.358 cast fairly hard. How the barrel is rifled makes a huge impact. Polygonal will not shoot cast. I had a Berreta once that had an immensely oversized bore. Wouldn't shoot anything accurately.

 

[Warboar]

My guess would be undersized bullets. Slugging the bore of the guns would tell you what the diameter is. I've seen some 9mm barrels as large as .358 while most are around .355-.356.
Typically it's best to shoot cast bullets that are sized .002 over the bore size. I shoot bullets anywhere from .002 to .004 over what my bore size is and have great results. I cast my own and shoot cast exclusively in all my handguns. I get great accuracy out of them. Just need to size them to your gun. If your shooting a revolver you size them to your cylinder.

 

[AJ]

What is a Canik?

I was mistaken it is a Taurus, not a Canik. This is Canik's website Canik USA - Superior Firearms Have shot a couple and was impressed.

 

[AJ]

My friend is using 356 bullets He prefers these.

 

[rockquarry]

My friend is using 356 bullets He prefers these.

Were they measured with a micrometer or is that diameter from a box label? As mentioned in my first post, an undersized bullet may be the entire problem or at least part of it.

 

[glenwolde]

I can't speak to the Beretta but Taurus 9mm barrels tend to run large. He "prefers" .356? Is that because of his superior results?

Ok that's a bit harsh but it would seem his preference is unfounded.

 

[AJ]

Were they measured with a micrometer or is that diameter from a box label? As mentioned in my first post, an undersized bullet may be the entire problem or at least part of it.

The box has .356 and he has measured them at .356.

I can't speak to the Beretta but Taurus 9mm barrels tend to run large. He "prefers" .356? Is that because of his superior results?

Ok that's a bit harsh but it would seem his preference is unfounded.

What is the size of the "large" barrels of the Taurus? Could it have something to do with the barrel length as both the Beretta and the Taurus have longer barrels than the 39? With other powder charges the guns has shot fine. The gentleman in question is a good shot, he shot on the 2nd Marine Division Team when in the Corps.

He and I discussed this last night. He is going to up the powder charge and see if that rectifies the problem.

 

[boatbum101]

9mm chambers & bores are all over the place as are throats & twist rates . When the military teams started with attempts to make a match pistol out of the Beretta 9mm they found it was a whole different ballgame vs the old 1911 45acp . Numerous mods to gun to improve lockup , 1 in 32 twist , 115gr jacketed bullets ( Sierra FMJ or Horn XTP ), the need for new or 1x fired cases only & push it fairly hard for a target round . Civilian shooters of course tried lead as most aren't sponsored or on Uncles dime . To this date I've yet to see anyone shoot 9mm lead load in any NRA Outdoor Conventional Match nor have I seen a " cleaned " 50yd B-6 Slow Fire shot with such . Not even a Ranson Rest test target / groups , plenty with jacketed , some sub 1 inch . Even with jacketed getting consistent 50yd groups with a 9 is costly & frustrating . Look at the cost of a new custom Match Pistol from the likes of David Sams or KC Crawford rather Berretta or 1911 in 9mm .

 

[jjfitch]

Some commercial cast bullets are very hard and may contribute to "barrel fit"!

I cast 10 BHN lead to .358 and size to .357 for .38 and 9mm. No leading or tumbling!

Be sure that you are not over "crimping"! You could be "swaging" the bullet to below bore size! SAAMI is .380 at case mouth!

Smiles,

 

[ironhead7544]

Tried to find a cheaper cast bullet load for my 9mms. The lighter bullets 125 gr and less showed keyholes. Never tried the 147 gr bullets. Found some 160 gr RN cast for the 38 Super. One of my older Lyman manuals had loads for it. Works nicely, no keyholes. Accurate enough for 25 yard practice. I used to find these on sale lots of times. Not so, now. I used up to .358 diameter with no problem. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die and have no problem with bulges. YMMV.

 

[rockquarry]

9mm chambers & bores are all over the place as are throats & twist rates . When the military teams started with attempts to make a match pistol out of the Beretta 9mm they found it was a whole different ballgame vs the old 1911 45acp . Numerous mods to gun to improve lockup , 1 in 32 twist , 115gr jacketed bullets ( Sierra FMJ or Horn XTP ), the need for new or 1x fired cases only & push it fairly hard for a target round . Civilian shooters of course tried lead as most aren't sponsored or on Uncles dime . To this date I've yet to see anyone shoot 9mm lead load in any NRA Outdoor Conventional Match nor have I seen a " cleaned " 50yd B-6 Slow Fire shot with such . Not even a Ranson Rest test target / groups , plenty with jacketed , some sub 1 inch . Even with jacketed getting consistent 50yd groups with a 9 is costly & frustrating . Look at the cost of a new custom Match Pistol from the likes of David Sams or KC Crawford rather Berretta or 1911 in 9mm .

I doubt nothing that you say. The 9mm cartridge is frustrating to work with for cast bullet use and many shooters give up long before they really get anywhere. After trying many powders, about a dozen bullet mould designs, different alloy mixes, etc., I found the 9mm is a good cast bullet cartridge.

Much of my work has been with a Beretta that I bought new in 1988. It's been fired a great deal. I've tried jacketed (not plated) bullets, but probably no more than a thousand. I've never done a side-by-side comparison of jacketed vs. cast, nor have I measured group sizes, but I'm pretty sure my best cast 9mm load is more accurate than any of the jacketed bullet loads I've tried. I've found this to be true with other handgun cartridges as well, as long as the bullet fit and alloy mix is optimum for the load.

I've had all my 9mm pistols (Beretta, Sig, and Walther) more than thirty years. They're unmodified in any way, so are certainly not competition guns but still shoot quite well for what they are.

Few have an interest in doing the load development work and experimentation to get 9mms to shoot cast bullets well, but it was worth the trouble for me as I'm intrigued by this sort of work. However, I can certainly understand a handloader preferring not to spend the time and effort. Our day-to-day obligations and priorities are very different.

 

[Cdog]

Undersized projectiles in the mix.

The only time I've had a modern handgun keyhole at close range this was the case.

I'll add that is was also my fault. I had two Bisely Blackhawk revolvers, one in .44 that other in .45 Colt.

At 25 yds I shot a few .430"-.431" from the .45 Colt before I noticed some of the holes were vertical. That was about 40 years ago, I still remember that sinking feeling. It was carelessness on my part.

You can be sure that I've been diligent in inspecting my ammo to firearm combos ever since.

Guessing it could be low velocity. Still I'm surprised the autofed firearm would function and bullets leave the barrel if they're not fast enough to prevent tumbling at close range.

 

[Warboar]

I have noticed since I have switched from conventional lubing my cast bullets to powder coating them that my accuracy has improved considerably. There is little to no difference between my cast load and when I loaded Sierra bullets. I shoot these groups from my CZ Shadow II. I am shooting a max load as that is where the gun gets it's best accuracy. I'm using 5.5gr of CFE Pistol for a 125gr truncated cone powder coated cast bullet and a small pistol primer. The cast bullet is meant for 357 Sig but I like how it shoots from my CZ. I shot these of my chrony before it stopped working and I was getting close to 1200fps. Right around 1180fps+/-.
They make big holes in Jack Rabbits when one decides to commit suicide and throw itself in front a speeding bullet.

 

[glenwolde]

The box has .356 and he has measured them at .356.



What is the size of the "large" barrels of the Taurus? Could it have something to do with the barrel length as both the Beretta and the Taurus have longer barrels than the 39? With other powder charges the guns has shot fine. The gentleman in question is a good shot, he shot on the 2nd Marine Division Team when in the Corps.

He and I discussed this last night. He is going to up the powder charge and see if that rectifies the problem.

I've slugged four Taurus 9mm's and they all ran at least .356. A guy I really respect says that with Taurus you run as fat a bullet as you can get to chamber. I think he's right.

I spent most of the summer working with lead bullets in the 9mm. After a couple of thousand rounds I came to the conclusion that you need to load them on the hot side. You need .357-.358 bullets with a lot of bearing surface. This was all in a Springfield 1911. I have more work to do on it.

 

[Nevada Ed]

As a note with the 130 gr and 3.5 grs of Bullsye load.........
it might be arond 833 to 866 fps which is very slow for a 9mm bullet
depending on the weapons used.
in 97% of my light loads that start to get some accuracy, I need to get up
to around 945 with coated and 984 with plated bullets.

My lightest bullseye load was 3.8 grs with a 125 JRN with a OAL of 1.09"
and it was never tried again, for your range of bullet weight.

The large 147 bullet is a different story........ but 3.3-3.5grs was a bummer for my test.

 

[SMSgt]

Ive never had good luck shooting cast in a 9mm. But the limited amount of marginal accuracy has been with over sized bullets .357 or.358 cast fairly hard. How the barrel is rifled makes a huge impact. Polygonal will not shoot cast. I had a Berreta once that had an immensely oversized bore. Wouldn't shoot anything accurately.

I will disagree with that. I shoot BN18 cast in my G30 without issue. Leading is no more of an issue than any other gun I shoot lead in. Accuracy is fine, no leading. My 6906 does well with cast also.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

The first cartridge I started reloading for in 1972 was 9X19mm, and the first bullet mold I acquired was for that caliber in 125-grain round-nose. I have loaded and fired many thousands of cast bullet 9mm loads since then, and using a dozen different pistols to do so. I have cast bullets using recovered range bullets (composition totally unknown), wheel weights (BHN ~12), up to pure linotype metal (BHN ~22), all bare (unplated) and lubed with NRA Alox formula.

Lots of variations in bore & groove diameters, as well as chamber dimensions. The finished cartridge must fit the magazine, must feed properly, and must chamber easily. Beyond those basics it is all about establishing a load that will reliably cycle the action of the pistol in use.

My Lyman manual shows a starting load of Bullseye at 3.7 grains and a max at 4.4 grains, with other published sources recommending similar range. I suspect that the 3.5 grain load is on the low side, might be contributing to the problem reported, and could cause other problems in some pistols.

One factor that seems to be overlooked by many folks is the need for complete removal of all traces of jacketed bullet residue in the bore and rifling. Nothing will cause problems with cast bullet performance more than residual copper and gilding metal. Pistols that have been heavily used with jacketed ammo may require some effort in cleaning the bore before cast bullets can be expected to perform well.

My recommendations would be:

1. Start with a thorough cleaning using solvent capable of removing copper jacket residue. This may require two or three good cleanings, depending on what you have to deal with. Residual copper residue will show itself as a greenish stain on the patches after soaking the barrel and scrubbing with a bore brush. We want our final cleaning patches to come out perfectly clean.
2. Begin with the starting load to evaluate performance, moving upward as necessary to assure reliable functioning. Ten rounds or so at each load level should be enough to accomplish this.
3. Once reliable function has been reached start testing for accuracy. Best performance will usually be found at or about 5% below book maximum load.
4. If Bullseye doesn't cut it for your pistol you might want to try something more in the middle of the burning range like AA #5 or Unique. My personal favorite for years was Blue Dot, but Unique has provided very good performance in 9mm cast bullet loads also.