Key Holing 9 MM

[boatbum101]

9mm chambers & bores are all over the place as are throats & twist rates . When the military teams started with attempts to make a match pistol out of the Beretta 9mm they found it was a whole different ballgame vs the old 1911 45acp . Numerous mods to gun to improve lockup , 1 in 32 twist , 115gr jacketed bullets ( Sierra FMJ or Horn XTP ), the need for new or 1x fired cases only & push it fairly hard for a target round . Civilian shooters of course tried lead as most aren't sponsored or on Uncles dime . To this date I've yet to see anyone shoot 9mm lead load in any NRA Outdoor Conventional Match nor have I seen a " cleaned " 50yd B-6 Slow Fire shot with such . Not even a Ranson Rest test target / groups , plenty with jacketed , some sub 1 inch . Even with jacketed getting consistent 50yd groups with a 9 is costly & frustrating . Look at the cost of a new custom Match Pistol from the likes of David Sams or KC Crawford rather Berretta or 1911 in 9mm .

 

[jjfitch]

Some commercial cast bullets are very hard and may contribute to "barrel fit"!

I cast 10 BHN lead to .358 and size to .357 for .38 and 9mm. No leading or tumbling!

Be sure that you are not over "crimping"! You could be "swaging" the bullet to below bore size! SAAMI is .380 at case mouth!

Smiles,

 

[ironhead7544]

Tried to find a cheaper cast bullet load for my 9mms. The lighter bullets 125 gr and less showed keyholes. Never tried the 147 gr bullets. Found some 160 gr RN cast for the 38 Super. One of my older Lyman manuals had loads for it. Works nicely, no keyholes. Accurate enough for 25 yard practice. I used to find these on sale lots of times. Not so, now. I used up to .358 diameter with no problem. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die and have no problem with bulges. YMMV.

 

[rockquarry]

9mm chambers & bores are all over the place as are throats & twist rates . When the military teams started with attempts to make a match pistol out of the Beretta 9mm they found it was a whole different ballgame vs the old 1911 45acp . Numerous mods to gun to improve lockup , 1 in 32 twist , 115gr jacketed bullets ( Sierra FMJ or Horn XTP ), the need for new or 1x fired cases only & push it fairly hard for a target round . Civilian shooters of course tried lead as most aren't sponsored or on Uncles dime . To this date I've yet to see anyone shoot 9mm lead load in any NRA Outdoor Conventional Match nor have I seen a " cleaned " 50yd B-6 Slow Fire shot with such . Not even a Ranson Rest test target / groups , plenty with jacketed , some sub 1 inch . Even with jacketed getting consistent 50yd groups with a 9 is costly & frustrating . Look at the cost of a new custom Match Pistol from the likes of David Sams or KC Crawford rather Berretta or 1911 in 9mm .

I doubt nothing that you say. The 9mm cartridge is frustrating to work with for cast bullet use and many shooters give up long before they really get anywhere. After trying many powders, about a dozen bullet mould designs, different alloy mixes, etc., I found the 9mm is a good cast bullet cartridge.

Much of my work has been with a Beretta that I bought new in 1988. It's been fired a great deal. I've tried jacketed (not plated) bullets, but probably no more than a thousand. I've never done a side-by-side comparison of jacketed vs. cast, nor have I measured group sizes, but I'm pretty sure my best cast 9mm load is more accurate than any of the jacketed bullet loads I've tried. I've found this to be true with other handgun cartridges as well, as long as the bullet fit and alloy mix is optimum for the load.

I've had all my 9mm pistols (Beretta, Sig, and Walther) more than thirty years. They're unmodified in any way, so are certainly not competition guns but still shoot quite well for what they are.

Few have an interest in doing the load development work and experimentation to get 9mms to shoot cast bullets well, but it was worth the trouble for me as I'm intrigued by this sort of work. However, I can certainly understand a handloader preferring not to spend the time and effort. Our day-to-day obligations and priorities are very different.

 

[Cdog]

Undersized projectiles in the mix.

The only time I've had a modern handgun keyhole at close range this was the case.

I'll add that is was also my fault. I had two Bisely Blackhawk revolvers, one in .44 that other in .45 Colt.

At 25 yds I shot a few .430"-.431" from the .45 Colt before I noticed some of the holes were vertical. That was about 40 years ago, I still remember that sinking feeling. It was carelessness on my part.

You can be sure that I've been diligent in inspecting my ammo to firearm combos ever since.

Guessing it could be low velocity. Still I'm surprised the autofed firearm would function and bullets leave the barrel if they're not fast enough to prevent tumbling at close range.

 

[Warboar]

I have noticed since I have switched from conventional lubing my cast bullets to powder coating them that my accuracy has improved considerably. There is little to no difference between my cast load and when I loaded Sierra bullets. I shoot these groups from my CZ Shadow II. I am shooting a max load as that is where the gun gets it's best accuracy. I'm using 5.5gr of CFE Pistol for a 125gr truncated cone powder coated cast bullet and a small pistol primer. The cast bullet is meant for 357 Sig but I like how it shoots from my CZ. I shot these of my chrony before it stopped working and I was getting close to 1200fps. Right around 1180fps+/-.
They make big holes in Jack Rabbits when one decides to commit suicide and throw itself in front a speeding bullet.

 

[glenwolde]

The box has .356 and he has measured them at .356.



What is the size of the "large" barrels of the Taurus? Could it have something to do with the barrel length as both the Beretta and the Taurus have longer barrels than the 39? With other powder charges the guns has shot fine. The gentleman in question is a good shot, he shot on the 2nd Marine Division Team when in the Corps.

He and I discussed this last night. He is going to up the powder charge and see if that rectifies the problem.

I've slugged four Taurus 9mm's and they all ran at least .356. A guy I really respect says that with Taurus you run as fat a bullet as you can get to chamber. I think he's right.

I spent most of the summer working with lead bullets in the 9mm. After a couple of thousand rounds I came to the conclusion that you need to load them on the hot side. You need .357-.358 bullets with a lot of bearing surface. This was all in a Springfield 1911. I have more work to do on it.

 

[Nevada Ed]

As a note with the 130 gr and 3.5 grs of Bullsye load.........
it might be arond 833 to 866 fps which is very slow for a 9mm bullet
depending on the weapons used.
in 97% of my light loads that start to get some accuracy, I need to get up
to around 945 with coated and 984 with plated bullets.

My lightest bullseye load was 3.8 grs with a 125 JRN with a OAL of 1.09"
and it was never tried again, for your range of bullet weight.

The large 147 bullet is a different story........ but 3.3-3.5grs was a bummer for my test.

 

[SMSgt]

Ive never had good luck shooting cast in a 9mm. But the limited amount of marginal accuracy has been with over sized bullets .357 or.358 cast fairly hard. How the barrel is rifled makes a huge impact. Polygonal will not shoot cast. I had a Berreta once that had an immensely oversized bore. Wouldn't shoot anything accurately.

I will disagree with that. I shoot BN18 cast in my G30 without issue. Leading is no more of an issue than any other gun I shoot lead in. Accuracy is fine, no leading. My 6906 does well with cast also.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

The first cartridge I started reloading for in 1972 was 9X19mm, and the first bullet mold I acquired was for that caliber in 125-grain round-nose. I have loaded and fired many thousands of cast bullet 9mm loads since then, and using a dozen different pistols to do so. I have cast bullets using recovered range bullets (composition totally unknown), wheel weights (BHN ~12), up to pure linotype metal (BHN ~22), all bare (unplated) and lubed with NRA Alox formula.

Lots of variations in bore & groove diameters, as well as chamber dimensions. The finished cartridge must fit the magazine, must feed properly, and must chamber easily. Beyond those basics it is all about establishing a load that will reliably cycle the action of the pistol in use.

My Lyman manual shows a starting load of Bullseye at 3.7 grains and a max at 4.4 grains, with other published sources recommending similar range. I suspect that the 3.5 grain load is on the low side, might be contributing to the problem reported, and could cause other problems in some pistols.

One factor that seems to be overlooked by many folks is the need for complete removal of all traces of jacketed bullet residue in the bore and rifling. Nothing will cause problems with cast bullet performance more than residual copper and gilding metal. Pistols that have been heavily used with jacketed ammo may require some effort in cleaning the bore before cast bullets can be expected to perform well.

My recommendations would be:

1. Start with a thorough cleaning using solvent capable of removing copper jacket residue. This may require two or three good cleanings, depending on what you have to deal with. Residual copper residue will show itself as a greenish stain on the patches after soaking the barrel and scrubbing with a bore brush. We want our final cleaning patches to come out perfectly clean.
2. Begin with the starting load to evaluate performance, moving upward as necessary to assure reliable functioning. Ten rounds or so at each load level should be enough to accomplish this.
3. Once reliable function has been reached start testing for accuracy. Best performance will usually be found at or about 5% below book maximum load.
4. If Bullseye doesn't cut it for your pistol you might want to try something more in the middle of the burning range like AA #5 or Unique. My personal favorite for years was Blue Dot, but Unique has provided very good performance in 9mm cast bullet loads also.

 

[Warboar]

Ive never had good luck shooting cast in a 9mm. But the limited amount of marginal accuracy has been with over sized bullets .357 or.358 cast fairly hard. How the barrel is rifled makes a huge impact. Polygonal will not shoot cast. I had a Berreta once that had an immensely oversized bore. Wouldn't shoot anything accurately.

The two Glocks I have shoot Cast bullets as well as anything else. One is a 2nd Gen Model 23 40 S&W and the other is a Model 40 10MM.
I treat them like the older Marlin "Micro grooved" barrels. Have to size them larger.

 

[6string]

9mm chambers & bores are all over the place as are throats & twist rates . When the military teams started with attempts to make a match pistol out of the Beretta 9mm they found it was a whole different ballgame vs the old 1911 45acp . Numerous mods to gun to improve lockup , 1 in 32 twist , 115gr jacketed bullets ( Sierra FMJ or Horn XTP ), the need for new or 1x fired cases only & push it fairly hard for a target round . Civilian shooters of course tried lead as most aren't sponsored or on Uncles dime . To this date I've yet to see anyone shoot 9mm lead load in any NRA Outdoor Conventional Match nor have I seen a " cleaned " 50yd B-6 Slow Fire shot with such . Not even a Ranson Rest test target / groups , plenty with jacketed , some sub 1 inch . Even with jacketed getting consistent 50yd groups with a 9 is costly & frustrating . Look at the cost of a new custom Match Pistol from the likes of David Sams or KC Crawford rather Berretta or 1911 in 9mm .

This is the best post in this thread. The various military marksmanship teams and their armorers & gunsmiths have done more legwork with the 9mm and accuracy of anyone in the USA.

That being said, there has been considerable success with lead bullet accuracy in Europe using the original Swiss-made SIG Neuhausen P210. The gun is built for accuracy. For cast bullets, an important change is the use of a "Bleilauf" or lead bullet barrel. These differ from the original in having deeper lands and a slower twist. SIG themselves made such a barrel in very small quantities. There was a German gunsmith (Obermeyer) who also marketed one for a while. I think the only option now is a custom barrel by IGB in Austria. They make custom barrels not only for the older SIG P210 and P240, but other contemporary makes, such as Glock.
More info on IGB:
IGB Austria Custom Barrel for SIG P210/5 - 9x19 & 9x21 Caliber with Thread and Slot - ZFI-Inc
There are great links to explore. There's a FAQ page on IGB, and a list of barrels offered by ZFI, their USA distributor/dealer.

But going back to AJ's post, these factors are critical:
-barrel groove diameter
-barrel rate of twist
-cast bullet hardness, lube, diameter, and weight
-velocity
-internal dimensions of brass (see footnote 1)
-reloading dies & their dimensions (see footnote 2)

footnote 1) Lots of brass gets quite thick towards the case head. Find and use brass that is in the lighter end of the spectrum. Use only matched headstamp brass, not mixed!
(footnote 2) Carefully check your loading dies compared to your chamber. Carbide dies are especially prone towards radically undersizing your brass.

Taken together, the issues in the above footnotes warn of the risk of unintentionally swaging your cast bullets (particularly the critical base!) when seating the bullet.
It doesn't matter what your cast bullet's sized dimension is if it is ruined by overly thick brass or undersized brass caused by your reloading dies!

The attached article (in German) by Hans Aicher and published in DWJ, is from my good friend and S&W forum member Peter (P44).

 

[6string]

And, the rest of the article....

There's more on the topic, but this is a good start.

 

[Funflyer]

I haven't measured but a few Taurus and Beretta barrels but I'd agree that they tend to run on the high end of the tolerance. I've got a Spectrum 380 that slugs @.3578" but surprisingly, it's extremely accurate with cast/coated bullets down to .356". My Beretta Pico also slugs pretty large @ .3579" and is very accurate with the same. Sizing from .357" all the way up to .359" makes little difference with accuracy. Neither will tumble bullets, but I only test out to 15-20 yards.

 

[boatbum101]

Great post 6string . Methinks KKM or possibly Barsto might could come close possibly . Cats meow with jacketed . Nowdays I prefer KKM but freely admit personal predjudice . I've also freely stated IMHO 9mm is an incredible PITA . Many other canidates for precision paper punching that are lead friendly & less finicky .

 

[AJ]

Great post 6string . Methinks KKM or possibly Barsto might could come close possibly . Cats meow with jacketed . Nowdays I prefer KKM but freely admit personal prejudice . I've also freely stated IMHO 9mm is an incredible PITA . Many other candidates for precision paper punching that are lead friendly & less finicky .

My friend and I are in agreement that there are better candidates for paper punching We both prefer .45 ACP He shot on a Division Team while in the Corps and I qualified for many years and shot IPSC with the ,45 ACP

Was just trying to get a 9 MM to shoot well, with what we had.

 

[mtgianni]

My friend is using 356 bullets He prefers these.

While he may prefer them two of his guns don't at the speed he shot them at. 3.5 gr BE is not an underpowered load. He may try pushing them faster. At minimum he should check the twist rate for the three guns. If they are close to the same then his bullets are undersized.

 

[AJ]

A friend was shooting some 130 grain cast over 3.5 grains of Bullseye. He had a Beretta 92, a Taurus and a S&W 39. In the first two he had multiple key holed shots in the target at 15 yards. With the 39, he had none. I shot five of his rounds in my 39 and while they grouped alright, I had one key hole.

I was shooting 147 grain cast over 3.5 grains of Bullseye. None of my rounds key holed in my 39. He tried the loading in his Beretta and it function fine with no key holes.

Best guesses are welcome. My first thought is he needs to up the powder to maybe 4.0 grains.

At the range today with new loadings for the 130 grain cast. This time he used 4.0 grains of Bullseye and not a one key holed.

I was shooting 2.8 grains of Bullseye with a 147 grain bullet out of my M39 and all in the 10 ring when I did my part. He tried the same loading in his Beretta for five shots. Four went in point first and one yawed a bit. Wondering if it has something to do with the Beretta 5 inch barrel vs the #9's 4 inch barrel.

 

[boatbum101]

Just a hunch , but bet that bore / bullet size & twist rate are not happy campers . IIRC 39 has a 1 in 18.75 " twist & 92 has a 1 in 10" . I'm also thinking his 92 has a looser bore than the others . 1 in 10 twist a 147gr cast Ly#2 hard ( so it won't skid ) & fattest his 92 will chamber . I'd also try a slower powder . Match shooters like VVN 340 - 320 , Power Pistol , WSF . WSF is cheapest & lead friendly . Could be wrong as senior moments come & go these days .

 

[Forrest r]

4.0gr of bullseye and any 120gr/130gr bullet in the 9mm's has been my go-to generic load for decades.

Myself I typically use 8/9bhn alloy to cast my own bullets for the 9mm's.

They get pc'd and sized to .358" to be used in a taurus g2c of a springfield ro 1911 chambered in 9mm.

Both the taurus and springfield ro have throated bbl's. The g2c is a 1 in 10 twist and the ro is 1 in 16 twist. Both pistols group well with that mihec 125gr bullet. But the match bbl that springfield has really shines when it comes to punching holes in paper.

Another mihec bullet that I cast. A 135gr himmelwright wc design for the 38spl & 9mm. The mold drops bullets .358" with my 8/9bhn alloy. I have excellent loads for the 38spl with these bullets & need to work up loads for the 9mm's. The initial testing looked promising.

Most struggle with the 9mm's and cast/lead bullets simply because they are:
Using too small and too hard of a cast bullet
Using the wrong nose profile/shape for the throating of their bbl
Using the wrong reloading dies/reloading dies that are setup for jacketed bullets