Kid suspended for toy gun in (virtual) class

[K Frame Keith]

If I was in this situation I would carefully orient the computer camera to prohibit spying and you can be damned sure I'd take the opportunity to audit the classes and take notes. When this Wuhan stupidity started our son and his wife chose to home school. Both have advanced degrees and may ultimately continue home schooling.

 

[BC38]

Well, with these stories, inflated to generate outrage, it's always in the choice of language. Implying the school called 911 sounds more dramatic than the resource officer doing his job.

And to quote his report directly, he didn't threaten to arrest the kid. Before leaving, he "advised Mr. Elliot and Isaiah if this behavior continued, Isaiah could potentially face criminal charges for interference with staff, faculty, and students of educational institutions." That's both legally correct and factual. So, depends on how inflammatory you want it to sound to get people worked up.

As far as the teacher and vice-principal are concerned, one can assume they know nothing about guns. Nobody wants to be the one to have to explain after something bad happens "Well, I thought it was just a toy ... "

The only thing ridiculous here was the suspension. Schools went overboard with the zero-tolerance nonsense quite some time ago. And kids can be stupid. I've taken dummy hand grenades, knives, and live ammo away from students and hidden them in my desk before colleagues could see the stuff, freak out about it and get the kids in outsized trouble.

So then am I correct in taking that last statement to mean you are a school teacher?

 

[Peashooter67]

Greetings all!

Personally, I see a number of issues here that are disturbing! It sounds like a child's attendance in classes via remote learning is endangering one's right to privacy and security in one's own home! Apparently, anything that is seen via computer by any authority figure in a school can now be reported to the authorities. This then leads to the very dangerous question, because of remote learning, does the home of a remotely taught student become an extension of the physical school's campus, and subject the residence to the policies of the school? Personally, I see a very dangerous legal situation here!

I think you are right and if said litigation find it's way into a liberal judges court room to create legislation via the bench so that legal president is set in court records it then become a paper tiger of horrible plausibilities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Absalom]

So then am I correct in taking that last statement to mean you are a school teacher?

Not for some years, but I have a bit over 20 years experience in various school settings, yes.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, a major assault on privacy is brewing.
As an old soldier I know the value of camouflage, seems to me bedsheets will soon be in demand, cover up the computer area during class time.

 

[Absalom]

Greetings all!

Personally, I see a number of issues here that are disturbing! It sounds like a child's attendance in classes via remote learning is endangering one's right to privacy and security in one's own home! Apparently, anything that is seen via computer by any authority figure in a school can now be reported to the authorities. This then leads to the very dangerous question, because of remote learning, does the home of a remotely taught student become an extension of the physical school's campus, and subject the residence to the policies of the school?...

What can be seen or not seen when the kids join a remote classroom clearly falls entirely into the parents' responsibility. You don't send your kid to school naked either. If I have to do a Zoom meeting or video conversation, I routinely double-check that the background is neutral.

Once it is being broadcast, of course anything can be reported to authorities, by anyone who sees it; it's no different from someone watching you through your living room window as you strangle somebody

The sticking point, which I think will indeed need to be settled in court eventually, is how far school rules can be enforced off school grounds. There is precedent; teachers have been fired and students suspended for drinking privately with host families after hours on school-sponsored foreign trips.

 

[Racer X]

Sounds like the school's rules include a prohibition of toy guns at home. 'Makes me wonder if there's any limit to how much freedom people can be groomed to give up. I suspect not.

Sweet Jeebus! Good thing they didn't see the knife collection hidden in a kitchen drawer!

 

[GaryS]

Even worse, it was a PICTURE of a toy gun, not a toy gun itself.

 

[BC38]

Not for some years, but I have a bit over 20 years experience in various school settings, yes.

That puts your take on this in perspective then.

 

[Ματθιας]

Even worse, it was a PICTURE of a toy gun, not a toy gun itself.

Gun porn. Kiddy gun porn.

 

[BC38]

What can be seen or not seen when the kids join a remote classroom clearly falls entirely into the parents' responsibility. You don't send your kid to school naked either. If I have to do a Zoom meeting or video conversation, I routinely double-check that the background is neutral.

Once it is being broadcast, of course anything can be reported to authorities, by anyone who sees it; it's no different from someone watching you through your living room window as you strangle somebody

The sticking point, which I think will indeed need to be settled in court eventually, is how far school rules can be enforced off school grounds. There is precedent; teachers have been fired and students suspended for drinking privately with host families after hours on school-sponsored foreign trips.

BALONEY! (to keep the language in-bounds)

You're equating looking through the window and witnessing a murder with a kid possessing a perfectly legal TOY in their own home!?!

And comparing mis-behavior on a school sponsored trip that someone participates in voluntarily to behavior in one's own home during mandated participation in school is equally absurd. You see no difference? And these examples from a valid precedent for THIS abuse? Seriously?

Since you, as a former educator, appear to be acting as an apologist or even an advocate for this ridiculous over-reach and over-reaction it is no wonder that such abuses are being perpetrated and justified by others in the field of "education".

Though it would be more appropriate to call it what it has actually become - INDOCTRINATION - rather than education..

 

[Ματθιας]

From the article;

The Grand Mountain school said in a statement: "We follow all school board policies whether we are in-person learning or distance learning. We take the safety of all our students and staff very seriously. Safety is always our number one priority."

It appears they are applying "policy" to the home.

 

[BC38]

From the article;



It appears they are applying "policy" to the home.

Yeah, those toy guns are a real safety concern. They are especially a danger to other students when they aren't even in the same building.

This isn't a "minimum sentencing" policy issue. It is a problem of a zero tolerance policy being taken to the absurd extreme of becoming a zero logic mindset.

 

[Justin T]

From the article;
It appears they are applying "policy" to the home.

That is exactly what they are doing. And are arguably within their rights.

I STRONGLY agree with the idea that this teacher/school overreacted and did this wrong. And could have/should have been handled in an entirely different way.

I can say, with some second-hand experience in the matter, that when a student accesses school resources, the school can make an argument that the tools used to access and results of that access fall under student guidelines and expectations for behavior. Just as if they were in a classroom.

In short, the zoom class is a classroom. And the student backgrounds are part of that classroom because the entire class may see them (not just teacher). Therefore, even the backgrounds may be subject to requirements regarding school appropriateness. If the toy gun was visible in the background then the school could make an argument that it violated school rules.

That being said, this was a Barney Fife way to do things. A more Andy-Griffith way to do it would have been to pull the kid off the zoom classroom and into a zoom side-conference with his parents, where the policy could be explained and a request could be made.

That's what's wrong here. Too much Barney Fife, not enough Andy Griffith.

 

[Rpg]

Perhaps the most important lesson in this is that what gets captured by a computer's video camera needs to be thought out.

Lots of kids are using these things without considering what the camera catches. That's the parents responsibility!

Keep in mind that, once it's broadcast, it's out there: no expectation of privacy and no legal privacy protection.

Just as Absalom said: don't complain when someone sees what is publicly observable.

 

[Rule3]

The BIG thing to consider here, is that no one on the forum has seen the actual video. Heck the school (per the report) will not even release it to the parents!
If it is a school video it is not open to public view So we do not know what the kid actually did with the toy gun.


There are other issues involved here, which we can not discuss so expect some law suits for other reasons to be coming.


Sending a SRO is sending the Police, (Sheriff) and not notifying the parents first, using a "welfare check" as a reason is all BS to me, so not at all defending the school action.

 

[UncleEd]

First off, in many or most states adults are
supposed to keep guns away from kids.

Next, a teacher sees a "gun" and reports it.
Toy guns today look very real. Anyone here
recall cases where a pollice officers blasts
someone to kingdom come only to learn
later the person had a toy?

The school takes legal action. The suspension was
silly once everything was cleared up, explained.

As gun owners we need to be very aware of
circumstances and same goes for having toy
guns around. I think we get a bit careless in our
thinking because we are so used to having guns.
Other people are not so used to firearms of any
kind.

But it's always nice on gun forums to bash the
educational systems. See it all the time.

 

[Absalom]

BALONEY! (to keep the language in-bounds)

You're equating looking through the window and witnessing a murder with a kid possessing a perfectly legal TOY in their own home!?!

.....

Sorry. The baloney is all yours.

You're either intentionally cross-wiring my argument or you just don't understand it.

What my argument was quite simply, and correctly, equating, was the public nature of turning on your web cam to a virtual meeting, and opening your curtains; once you do that, you can't prevent people from seeing what they can see.

 

[DeathGrip]

It's a sad day when you have to hide your toy gun. It subliminally tells the youngsters and sheeple that guns are bad in some dark way. That's the intended harm in this kinda overreaction.

Always check your background or create one.

 

[delcrossv]

First off, in many or most states adults are
supposed to keep guns away from kids.

Next, a teacher sees a "gun" and reports it.
Toy guns today look very real. Anyone here
recall cases where a pollice officers blasts
someone to kingdom come only to learn
later the person had a toy?

The school takes legal action. The suspension was
silly once everything was cleared up, explained.

As gun owners we need to be very aware of
circumstances and same goes for having toy
guns around. I think we get a bit careless in our
thinking because we are so used to having guns.
Other people are not so used to firearms of any
kind.

But it's always nice on gun forums to bash the
educational systems. See it all the time.

I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous. In no state that I'm aware of are guns prohibited from use by minors with parental consent.And I'm talking real firearms.

Second, the item is question was a toy. In no state are toy guns regulated.

Third, it was in the student's home.

So yes, the public education establishment in this country IS heavily populated by idiots and buffoons wherein the subject of this thread is just the latest example.

 

[johngalt]

Political statements, signs, or other items are prohibited at work. I've been told the prohibition extends to my home while I am working there during work hours.

 

[S42N8]

What do they do if the kid has one of those dangerous toy lions or dinosaurs in their room?

Bunch of Nit Wits running the school.

God forbid they have a Carole Baskin doll!

 

[Sistema1927]

Is certainly is a strange new world for those of us who not only kept guns and ammo in our bedrooms while growing up, we actually took guns to school.

Personal responsibility is neither lauded nor encouraged. It is far easier to blame the inanimate object than to teach responsibility. All aided by the lunacy known as "zero tolerance" which removes discernment and common sense from the equation.

 

[GaryS]

A lot of people here seem to be missing that there was no crime here as the "gun" was painted bright colors and was clearly a toy.

I did see a picture and the "gun" was bright green, just as anti gun people have been demanding toy guns be.

Even if the child had an "objectionable" poster or toy of some kind, it is not the teacher's responsibility to report it.

If there was evidence of child abuse, then the teacher would be legally bound to report it.

This was not the case here and was an instance of a teacher trying to impose her beliefs on a family by involving law enforcement.

The parents should demand the teacher be fired and then sue the school system for the teacher's actions.

That is the only way this intrusive 1984 style invasion of privacy will stop.

 

[Jinglebob]

This is child abuse under the guise of political correctness. Any teacher or school administrator that doesn't understand how little boys work doesn't deserve to be working with children.

 

[redlevel]

The only thing ridiculous here was the suspension.

No. The whole damned thing was ridiculous.

Do you realize how predictable you are? When I read the first few posts earlier today, then read a couple of articles about it, I thought to myself, "Well, it won't be long until Absalom comes along and tells everyone how they are overreacting, and how the school actually handled things mostly correctly."

Called it, didn't I.

 

[Absalom]

This is child abuse under the guise of political correctness. Any teacher or school administrator that doesn't understand how little boys work doesn't deserve to be working with children.

Isaiah wasn't a "little boy", he was 12. Incidentally, the same age as Tamir Rice, who got himself shot to death by police for having a toy gun, and it was found to be "justfied". So I don't think the child angle is terribly convincing here.

 

[Absalom]

....
Do you realize how predictable you are? When I read the first few posts earlier today, then read a couple of articles about it, I thought to myself, "Well, it won't be long until Absalom comes along and tells everyone how they are overreacting, and how the school actually handled things mostly correctly."

Called it, didn't I.

Well, that's sort of become my mission around here:

Prevent this from turning into just another echo chamber of grumpy old farts who want to get worked up about things without letting reality or common sense get in the way too much

Too many other gun forums have gone down that rabbit hole beyond hope.

 

[Sistema1927]

Well, that's sort of become my mission around here:

Prevent this from turning into just another echo chamber of grumpy old farts who want to get worked up about things without letting reality or common sense get in the way too much

Too many other gun forums have gone down that rabbit hole beyond hope.

Reality? Post-modern subjective denial of objective truth is what has led to situations such as this. And the fact that you think that the teacher/LEO reaction was "common sense" shows how much we need more of the real thing and not the phony spirit of the age that you are defending.

Happy to be a "grumpy old fart", but out of the "chamber" and shouting it from the rooftops.

 

[ameridaddy]

Besides an education, another thing schools should be trying to achieve is socialization – (the people to people thing, not Marxism lite) – and maybe a healthy curiosity and development of self esteem.
They blew all that out of the water in this instance. I don't think the power drunk, gun-fearing harpies and ogres that populate public school administrations and faculties have a clue about subtlety and nuance; it's all panic, screaming and hyper-reaction. Why couldn't the teacher have just called the kid's parents and had a rational discussion about his/her concerns?