Laser/light combo or light / red dot combo??

[RossMatt]

I have a tactical revovler - TRR8 - and am wanting to add either a laser/light combo OR a light/red dot combo...
If I do the former, I plan on a Viridian combo unit and if the latter, I'd like to have a Burris Fast Fire on top and a light below.

This set up is for home defense. In a night scenario, I want a light on the gun instead of carrying a flashlight. I know there are opinions out there, but I am pretty solid in wanting at least that. The optic is where I am torn...

Would the fast fire sight work at night in my target is illuminated? If so, I am thinking this is the best case combo... partly because I eliminate the laser bouncing all over the place, and moreso, because I could use the FastFire at the range.

Thoughts? Learn me up gentlemen!!

Thank you

 

[Foxtrot]

Trijicon night sights, a good weapon light, and training and practice, will do the average home owner better in a darkened close quarters home defense situation then a red dot sight and laser.

You won't believe the number of people that get red dot sights for a home defense handgun and forget to take the time to turn them on before trying to engage a target. I've heard all the stories, "I aimed right at him, I missed, I was only 20 feet away" then when asked if they had the red dot turned on their answer is "I think so", thats a big clue right there, they don't even know if the sight was turned on or not so how could they be so sure they aimed right at the bad guy? No wonder they missed, they were under combat stress and scared and its easy to forget to do something or miss and no amount of technology can compensate for that, training and practice would have helped though. Its like when people get stopped for speeding and the officer asks "do you know how fast you were going?" and the speeder looks down at their speedometer expecting some sort of answer from it. That sort of "deer caught in the headlights" look but with words or silence instead. I especially loved the people who were range shooters and told me "I can do 1 inch groups with this gun, I should have hit him." I usually asked "was he moving?" the answer is always "Yes", well duh! of course he was moving, and guess what - paper targets on the range don't move around all that much. The laser users, bought the gun with the laser, bad guy enters, home owner suprises bad guy, bad guy starts running around, they put the dot on what they think is a part of the bad guy and end up shooting the kitchen chair, its difficult to keep a laser dot on a moving target but they think they can do it and keep concentrating on the dot and completly forget to use the iron sights.

Training and practice with the basics, training and practice, then more training and practice, then when you get tired of training and practice....more training and practice. Oh and there is always practice and training too - with a good solid basics platform first which means iron sights, grip, proper weapon control, proper alignment under stress, movement....there is no technology you can put on your weapon that will replace these and make you an instant "tactical ninja". After the basics with the basics becomes part of your being, then maybe the technology.

For home defense, a handgun is OK if you hit the target each trigger pull, but unfortunately over 90% of home owners will not be able to do that quickly in the dark, in close quarters. A 12 ga shotgun and 00 buck, and waiting for the fool to come into the hallway kill zone will pretty much ensure a hit and stopping power at home CQB distances for the home owner. If he gets what he wants and then leaves and you don't get to pull the trigger after all, then thats good too. But what ever you do, do not move to engagement unless you absolutly need to do so, take cover and wait for them to come to you and you will have the element of suprise on your side. Of course, don't pretend its a hollywood movie either and stand your ground when you could have gotten out safely and called the cops - macho translates directly to dead in most situations.

Your money would be better spent on a good set of iron sights for low level light use (the trijicon night iron sight types) and a good tactical flashlight, AND, a decent defense shooting and training course. The sexy technology glamor of red dot sights and lasers will be there later if you still want it.

For the average home owner its easy to feel confident in abilities with technology, they forget or don't know its the proper use and employment of that technology that gives the edge and not simply the existance of the technology. The trained and experienced know that depending on just the technology alone is no substitute for skills with the basics because they know, just like the home owners who did not turn the sights on or spent their last few seconds of life chasing a red laser dot around, the technology may not be working out for them when the time comes.

 

[Cpo1944]

I have a Burris fast fire on my 6 inch 629 . It is great for the range lousy for household defense I know I would never remember to turn it on in an emergency.
My house defense weapon is my m-57 6 inch with a tactical flashlight mounted below the barrel. The light switch is on the back of the light and is practically instinctive to push it on.
The light is very bright and the standard iron sights show up quite well. Not only that the compressed light beam is almost good enough to be a gun sight by it`self .
I have other revolvers and pistols with Crimson Trace laser grips and I like them a lot, but I really wanted a bright hands free light -to make an absolute positive ID of my target.
I am deathly afraid of "friendly fire" and would rather give up my position to ensure no mistake is made.
My light mount is very crude and downright plug ugly , but it is also very effective. If your interested let me know and I`ll post a pic.

 

[RossMatt]

I have a Burris fast fire on my 6 inch 629 . It is great for the range lousy for household defense I know I would never remember to turn it on in an emergency.
My house defense weapon is my m-57 6 inch with a tactical flashlight mounted below the barrel. The light switch is on the back of the light and is practically instinctive to push it on.
The light is very bright and the standard iron sights show up quite well. Not only that the compressed light beam is almost good enough to be a gun sight by it`self .
I have other revolvers and pistols with Crimson Trace laser grips and I like them a lot, but I really wanted a bright hands free light -to make an absolute positive ID of my target.
I am deathly afraid of "friendly fire" and would rather give up my position to ensure no mistake is made.
My light mount is very crude and downright plug ugly , but it is also very effective. If your interested let me know and I`ll post a pic.

I'd love to see some pics. Just really trying to be as efficient as possible - with a bit of cool factor for giggles. you know? Well also, to avoid getting in trouble with the wife by getting gear...

 

[Cpo1944]

here it is .
I cut the zip ties off of it and remove the light before I go to the range to avoid being laughed out of the place.

 

[RossMatt]

that is pretty crude - but... effective! I get it!
I am still considering a crimson trace - and won't need the zip ties because my rig has rails. I will post a pic when she is done for sure. thanks bud.

 

[Foxtrot]

The light is very bright and the standard iron sights show up quite well. Not only that the compressed light beam is almost good enough to be a gun sight by it`self .
I have other revolvers and pistols with Crimson Trace laser grips and I like them a lot, but I really wanted a bright hands free light -to make an absolute positive ID of my target.

Now you got the right idea. The number one thing almost 100% of home owners forget in home invaison sceinarios - thinking.

Despite hollywood movies and TV shows, in real life the number one thing relied upon and used to make quick shots in a close contact situation in darkened areas is the light with a tight beam that lights up the general point of impact, along with a certain amount of surrounding area (there may be more then one of them). We use adjustable mounts for our rifle lights to provide us a certain amount of adjustment for elevation and windage to make sure the brightest part of the beam is center mass. With a light its much faster to ID and engage the target in such close quarters.

I'm thinking you should be able to find a mount for that light somewhere. Good field expediant method, but i'd want to make sure the thing did not slip some if I was doing some rapid fire and using the beam for target acquistion.

 

[Cpo1944]

that is pretty crude - but... effective! I get it!
I am still considering a crimson trace - and won't need the zip ties because my rig has rails. I will post a pic when she is done for sure. thanks bud.

I have 4 guns with Crimson trace and I love them.
629 3 inch- my CC weapon, m-60, m-19,and Kimber CDP.
A good combination would be a flashlight in addition to a laser.
There is a gun store here in NC called Outerbanks Ammo? I think thats it, anyway they have great prices on Crimson Trace products.
Look at this target I shot it standing with my hands braced against my belly shooting double action at 30 feet.The separate groups were intentional this was done with my 629 using the laser.

 

[RufusG]

here it is .
I cut the zip ties off of it and remove the light before I go to the range to avoid being laughed out of the place.

Are you kidding? I'd tape a steak knife to the bottom of that before heading to the range, then warm up with some Tai-Chi exercises before shooting. Guaranteed empty benches to both sides.

 

[RossMatt]

Are you kidding? I'd tape a steak knife to the bottom of that before heading to the range, then warm up with some Tai-Chi exercises before shooting. Guaranteed empty benches to both sides.

some knives, chapstick, a spork from KFC, and a sparkler would do wonders on an intruder.

 

[Cpo1944]

some knives, chapstick, a spork from KFC, and a sparkler would do wonders on an intruder.

You right it looks like **** . I wish someone made a professional mount, but until then I`ll stick with "ole Ugly"!

Fortunately I have plenty of other guns so this one can stay hidden in my bedside table.

It`s kind of sad though cause I miss shooting .41`s and this is the only .41 I`ve got.

 

[Cpo1944]

Now you got the right idea. The number one thing almost 100% of home owners forget in home invaison sceinarios - thinking.

Despite hollywood movies and TV shows, in real life the number one thing relied upon and used to make quick shots in a close contact situation in darkened areas is the light with a tight beam that lights up the general point of impact, along with a certain amount of surrounding area (there may be more then one of them). We use adjustable mounts for our rifle lights to provide us a certain amount of adjustment for elevation and windage to make sure the brightest part of the beam is center mass. With a light its much faster to ID and engage the target in such close quarters.

I'm thinking you should be able to find a mount for that light somewhere. Good field expediant method, but i'd want to make sure the thing did not slip some if I was doing some rapid fire and using the beam for target acquistion.

Hi Foxtrot You and I think very much alike .I have shot this rig several times to ensure that the light stayed together and keeps on working after lots of recoil.
It did quite well except it crept forward so I had to install a smaller zip tie thru the attachment ring on the back of the light.
Since I did that it works great, I have been looking for a mount ,but so far no luck.
There is one good thing about my "homely mount " and that is - NO MARKS/ SCARS on my m-57 when I take it off.

 

[Foxtrot]

I have 4 guns with Crimson trace and I love them.
629 3 inch- my CC weapon, m-60, m-19,and Kimber CDP.
A good combination would be a flashlight in addition to a laser.
There is a gun store here in NC called Outerbanks Ammo? I think thats it, anyway they have great prices on Crimson Trace products.
Look at this target I shot it standing with my hands braced against my belly shooting double action at 30 feet.The separate groups were intentional this was done with my 629 using the laser.

Nice shooting

 

[Cpo1944]

Nice shooting

Thanks,

I hope you don`t think I posted this target to brag about what a great shot I am cause I`m not a great shot.

I wanted to show how good the laser is .There is no way I could shoot from the hip and get results like that!

With a laser all you have to do is hold that little red dot still and concentrate on a good smooth trigger pull and anyone can get good results.

I know the shooting "purists" will not like it because it eliminates
traditional use of the iron sights , but it also eliminates the worry over good eyesight/poor eyesight,dominate eye,weak eye,high vis sights ,etc.etc.

I am fortunate enough to have lots of guns to shoot ,but only a few of them have lasers so I still practice traditional sighting, but as I age and eyes deteriorate the lasers are becoming more important to me.

 

[Foxtrot]

Thanks,

I hope you don`t think I posted this target to brag about what a great shot I am cause I`m not a great shot.

I wanted to show how good the laser is .There is no way I could shoot from the hip and get results like that!

With a laser all you have to do is hold that little red dot still and concentrate on a good smooth trigger pull and anyone can get good results.

I know the shooting "purists" will not like it because it eliminates
traditional use of the iron sights , but it also eliminates the worry over good eyesight/poor eyesight,dominate eye,weak eye,high vis sights ,etc.etc.

I am fortunate enough to have lots of guns to shoot ,but only a few of them have lasers so I still practice traditional sighting, but as I age and eyes deteriorate the lasers are becoming more important to me.

Nah i did not think that.

I like lasers, I use them but I use them in the proper situations. They are nice for precision shooting, especially when I only see a small part of a target. And it is true that target acquistion can be very quick with them, in the right situation.

Take your use of the laser to hit the target as an example. Some nice shooting, but now try that same thing by: in a dark room, with a blindfold on, spin around several times and while doing so have someone move the target away from where you remembered it, then assume the same stance and fire. How many rounds would you have landed on the target then? Without moving out of position, remove the blindfold, have someone turn on the lights, and see where your laser dot is then. UNLOAD THE GUN FIRST AND BE POSITIVE ITS CLEAR.

NOTE: I am not advocating that you do this with live ammo. However, its representative of the conditions you might experince in a home invaision sceinario as the darkness seems to close in around you and you can't really see the target upon with to place the dot, and you do not really know where they are, especially if you just woke up. A light would do much better at allowing quicker target acquistion in cases like this.

Another note...this is similar to an actual exercise we use in our training, the laser never wins, same dark room (can't see your hand in front of your face dark), we do have the guy turn around several times. We practice with targets that detect the light and laser and trigger an alarm when it hits the target, the light is always faster for acquistion. Then we use paint rounds for confirmation of hits under actual firing. We also vary the sceinario randomly with the slighest amount of light and more then one target in the room but sort of close to each other but out of straight line of sight from the shooter available field of view. The shooter enters the room through a doorway and is facing a wall across from the doorway forcing him/her to turn right to find the targets (this also helps mimic the majority of apartment dwelling entry ways) and also forcing him/her to hunt for target aqcuistion instead of walking straight into it, the laser looses there too, and the light always allows faster target acquistion. Oddly though the women seem to do better at this exercise overall then the men for some reason with slightly better reaction times.

 

[Cpo1944]

Nah i did not think that.

I like lasers, I use them but I use them in the proper situations. They are nice for precision shooting, especially when I only see a small part of a target. And it is true that target acquistion can be very quick with them, in the right situation.

Take your use of the laser to hit the target as an example. Some nice shooting, but now try that same thing by: in a dark room, with a blindfold on, spin around several times and while doing so have someone move the target away from where you remembered it, then assume the same stance and fire. How many rounds would you have landed on the target then? Without moving out of position, remove the blindfold, have someone turn on the lights, and see where your laser dot is then. UNLOAD THE GUN FIRST AND BE POSITIVE ITS CLEAR.

NOTE: I am not advocating that you do this with live ammo. However, its representative of the conditions you might experince in a home invaision sceinario as the darkness seems to close in around you and you can't really see the target upon with to place the dot, and you do not really know where they are, especially if you just woke up. A light would do much better at allowing quicker target acquistion in cases like this.

Another note...this is similar to an actual exercise we use in our training, the laser never wins, same dark room (can't see your hand in front of your face dark), we do have the guy turn around several times. We practice with targets that detect the light and laser and trigger an alarm when it hits the target, the light is always faster for acquistion. Then we use paint rounds for confirmation of hits under actual firing. We also vary the sceinario randomly with the slighest amount of light and more then one target in the room but sort of close to each other but out of straight line of sight from the shooter available field of view. The shooter enters the room through a doorway and is facing a wall across from the doorway forcing him/her to turn right to find the targets (this also helps mimic the majority of apartment dwelling entry ways) and also forcing him/her to hunt for target aqcuistion instead of walking straight into it, the laser looses there too, and the light always allows faster target acquistion. Oddly though the women seem to do better at this exercise overall then the men for some reason with slightly better reaction times.

Excellent points and they are well taken by me, I don`t have a laser on my home protection weapon ,It is the M-57 with the ugly light. I have a N frame laser but it`s gonna stay on my 629-3 inch which is my CC weapon.
Your training technique would be great if it were available to us lay people. Maybe you should start a sideline job teaching proper real world scenarios , possibly in conjunction with a CC class. I know 3 people within 1 block of me who would sign up right now.Most of us are too used to static targets and learning about fluid situations is what we really need.

 

[everReady Rob]

I am a believer in the laser infra red dot and my favorite is Crimson Trace. I don't think for home protection it can be beat. Imagine the punk in your dark house seeing THE light pointing at him and looking down at his chest and seeing THE red dot on his ever increasing heart beat. Hank wrote a song about it _ I Saw The Light _ or no, wait, I guess he didn't mean that light.

The on/off problem mentioned above is really not a problem as the battery is not activated until the warmth on your hand activates it. Mine stays on all the time.

 

[TDR911]

jack oconnor,
There are a lot of quality trainers out there. Most will put you thru the basics before they go to night shoots. Here is a link to Randy Cain. Goodlettsville tenn. Not to far away. I have trained with Randy and he is a top notch trainer. What you will learn from any top trainer will change the way you think and look about your surroundings.
Cumberland Tactics PO Box 1400
Do some google serching and you will find that there are quite a few in your area.

I will put together a post with all the training sites that I have saved.

 

[Foxtrot]

jack oconnor,
There are a lot of quality trainers out there. Most will put you thru the basics before they go to night shoots. Here is a link to Randy Cain. Goodlettsville tenn. Not to far away. I have trained with Randy and he is a top notch trainer. What you will learn from any top trainer will change the way you think and look about your surroundings.
Cumberland Tactics PO Box 1400
Do some google serching and you will find that there are quite a few in your area.

Absolutly correct, nothing will serve you better than proper training.

I've said it before and i'll say it again: Start with the basics, and learning with a basic package - iron sights, grip, stance, movement, etc.... Training and practice, training and practice, training and practice, and when you get tired of that, then practice and training. No amount of technology is going to make you an "instant tactical ninja", and no amount of technology is going to help you if it either fails or is not the proper tool for the job. The basics, with training and practice, will always be with you and will always work.

The sexy technology will still be there later if you want it, spend the money for now on some decent training.

 

[Cpo1944]

I am a believer in the laser infra red dot and my favorite is Crimson Trace. I don't think for home protection it can be beat. Imagine the punk in your dark house seeing THE light pointing at him and looking down at his chest and seeing THE red dot on his ever increasing heart beat. Hank wrote a song about it _ I Saw The Light _ or no, wait, I guess he didn't mean that light.

The on/off problem mentioned above is really not a problem as the battery is not activated until the warmth on your hand activates it. Mine stays on all the time.

The on/off statement was in regard to the Burris Fast Fire holographic sight. It has a very small on/off switch on the side of it ,and if you forget to turn it off the batt will die,it also has a cover which I normally leave on -that would have to be removed too.All in all far too cumbersome for hoe defense.

I was not aware of a heat sensitive switch on the Crimson trace .
Mine has a master on/off switch on the bottom , but I just leave it in the on position all of the time since there is no batt drain until you press the main grip trigger/switch.