laser sight, grip or rail?

[Cpo1944]

As I have said numerous times I am a big fan of CT Lasers, but I do All of my target and plinking shooting during daylight hours. Is it even legal to shoot after dark? Anyway the argument about using lasers is bad and makes one lazy etc is just bunk!
One cannot see the laser during the day , so that means I and my mates are using the "REAL" sights and doing things properly right?
BUT in the dark the laser works so well that I am bumfuzzled by the critics. How can anything that works so well be bad?
Not making blanket statements but "everything in moderation" generally is good, shooting, working,playing,drinking or praying, all the same.

 

[Rastoff]

...I do All of my target and plinking shooting during daylight hours.

One cannot see the laser during the day,...

BUT in the dark the laser works so well...

I just gotta ask, how do you know? I mean, if you do ALL your shooting in the daylight where you say the laser can't be seen, how do you know it works well in the dark? By your own admission, you've never used it in the dark so, are you just speculating? Surely you see why I'm confused by your statement?


Look, there's nothing wrong with using a laser as long as you don't forget the fundamentals of shooting. There are certainly situations where a laser is a great benefit. It is a great training tool especially for dry practice. But, just like any device, there are problems and pitfalls. I've worked with many shooters who thought the laser would improve their shooting. Without exception, it did not. Once I got them to use their sights properly, their groups improved.

 

[lhump1961]

I have to say I'd be a bit insulted if someone says I forgot how to use iron sights and am lazy just because I have a laser on my gun. Lasers have a role and work well.

Don't like 'em? Don't use 'em...the OP wasn't asking if we like lasers!

 

[SoCalDep]

OK, now that's just funny right there and I don't care who ya are!

Even so, I agree; blanket statements rarely prove true.

However, there is a general issue with lasers. They tend to make people lazy. They give a false impression that it will be easier to shoot by just using the laser. By relying on the laser a shooter then becomes limited by that.

SoCalDep you are the exception. By your own admission the laser has limited application. You work hard on focusing on the sights and only rely on the laser in low light conditions. I would even bet that you're still looking, at least 60%, for the sights even in the low light and the laser is just being used as an assist.

Like I said earlier, if you have to have a laser, it must be one that is activated by a normal grip. Any additional action is bad and slows you down. The trigger finger should have only one job; activating the trigger.

"Skill is good, but skill going up against skill and good equipment is gonna get smoked. Every. Time." I completely agree with this statement. But, the best equipment means nothing if not used properly.

Notice I said "most"...not always!

I agree with almost everything you said, but as for the lazy issue...One could make the same argument for high-capacity semi-auto pistols. Without training they just let you miss more. It's all about training. I don't think lasers "make" people lazy, they just make it easier to be as lazy as they are. This is where internet and marketing BS cause problems. People think a laser will solve every problem, or they think it won't solve any. The truth, as is usually the case, is somewhere in the middle. They are a tool for the tool box. I don't need a phillips screwdriver for every home project, but there are some things where it's just the right tool for the job...same with a laser. I recently had to explain this line of thought to a liability-minded supervisor. I explained that of the seven fundamentals of marksmanship (as per our curriculum) the laser, on it's best day, can only address two of them. Thus, an accurate shooter will not a laser make. Could a laser result in improved shooting? Possibly- if the shooter's issues (lack of skill or training) or the situation presented involve inability to obtain proper sight alignment or sight picture.

I'll also stress my agreement with your "instinctive activation" comment. I have a couple Streamlight TLR-2 units (one red and one green) and I like them, but much prefer the CTC grip setup. Since I activate the light/laser with my support thumb it's not too bad, but again, CTC is better. Streamlight offers a contour pressure switch (and Surefire does also with the X400 and DG switch) that accomplishes the same thing.

I don't blame the laser for people being lazy, and I try not to assume laziness from the person who wants a laser. I try to ensure a prospective user knows that it isn't a fix-all, nor is it a "mandatory" item (as I said before, I think a weapon-mounted light is a much more important addition). Further, as with anything one plans to use to defend their life, training from a knowledgeable and experienced instructor is paramount and more important than any doodad you can hang off your gun.

 

[SoCalDep]

Another issue I see is there just aren't that many people and organizations out there that truly train how to correctly use a laser, how it fits into the role of a firearm, and how to integrate the use of lasers into low light tactics.

I stress low light because lasers have severe disadvantages during daylight, however there are some uses.

My department currently runs a four hour certification course for sworn personnel who wish to carry a handgun equipped with a laser. There are numerous budgetary and logistical reasons they went with 4 hours, but if I had it my way it would be a minimum 8 hour class, and longer if possible.

Most of our firearms instructor cadre doesn't even understand laser use, so they just regurgitate what is in the lesson program. This is sad in that there are basic concepts, tactics, and techniques to the use of lasers. Instruction that emphasizes the techniques without a strong foundation in the concepts and/or tactics is doing a disservice in that the student doesn't fully understand laser use, and that student is likely to propagate laser misinformation.

I, along with a couple other instructors, have been working on updating the training program to address (at least some of) these deficiencies. I have done lots of research, attended multiple training classes, researched numerous shootings on our department involving the use of lasers, and have come to the conclusion that lasers are a very worthwhile, yet very misunderstood addition to the defensive firearm. Hopefully with time, increased use and therefore experience, and more formal training curriculum the benefits of lasers can be maximized.

 

[Rastoff]

I completely agree with you SoCalDep.

The laser doesn't make a shooter lazy. That was poor choice of words on my part. It does offer an excuse to not practice.

Like you said, the laser has a place. And, when used properly, is quite effective. However, the likelihood of the average citizen finding themselves in a situation where the laser is an advantage is small. So, I lean heavily toward training without it.

Another reason, like you said, is that there is so little real training available for it. Thus, shooters tend to rely on what they see in the advertisements.

Crimson Trace makes a really high quality product. That is not at issue. What is, is the idea being floated that a laser makes you a better shot; it doesn't. The laser is just another sighting device. Just like a red dot or scope, you still need the basics to shoot well.

 

[Cpo1944]

I never said I never used the laser in the dark I was mainly saying It cant be seen in the sunlight. It CAN be seen in deep woods shadows and it really helps accuracy. My grandchildren do great with and without the lasers , but they like shooting much more with . The light makes shooting more fun.If it`s fun you will do it more and do it better, Who can argue with that?

I just gotta ask, how do you know? I mean, if you do ALL your shooting in the daylight where you say the laser can't be seen, how do you know it works well in the dark? By your own admission, you've never used it in the dark so, are you just speculating? Surely you see why I'm confused by your statement?


Look, there's nothing wrong with using a laser as long as you don't forget the fundamentals of shooting. There are certainly situations where a laser is a great benefit. It is a great training tool especially for dry practice. But, just like any device, there are problems and pitfalls. I've worked with many shooters who thought the laser would improve their shooting. Without exception, it did not. Once I got them to use their sights properly, their groups improved.

 

[Rastoff]

If you like it, more power to ya. Enjoy it in good health. It's also good to get the kids out there.

 

[Sgt 45]

I'd agree that it's a tool in the tool box. If the battery dies or it doesn't work for some reason, oh well, those things happen and you go back to basics. The only gun I think is mandatory to have a laser on is the LCP since it doesn't have sights (you know what I mean). With the experience of the LCP and the CT, I am toying with the idea of the grip laser for my M&P. I also wonder about the psychological effect on the bad guy of having that red dot on his chest or eyes.

 

[SoCalDep]

I also wonder about the psychological effect on the bad guy of having that red dot on his chest or eyes.

The biggest reaction I ever had to my laser by a suspect involved a guy who had just attacked a couple people with a knife. We found him under a pickup truck in a car port. We ordered him out from under the truck and as he crawled out I put my laser in front of his face and then walked it across onto his back. He freaked out and started begging "please don't shock me with the Taser!!!" Hey...whatever works.

I also initiated a felony stop on a guy who had just pistol-whipped his sister and threatened to shoot her. He was totally uncooperative, screaming at me to kill him, that he'd kill me, etc., and even with that laser dancing across his face (no doubt he saw it) he had absolutely zero reaction.

I have a few more (but less dramatic) stories that support both sides.

In short...It may work to de-escalate a situation but I sure wouldn't count on it.

 

[fusillop1]

To Bassman: I have CT laser sites on a 642 and a 686. I find that my normal grip does not press the laser button down enough to consistently make the light stay on. I must concentrate to make it work. Some of the readers will quickly announce that I should change my grip but I learned to shoot in Parris Island 60 years ago and can still usually hit what I shoot at. It would be best to try one first if you can. I have a nine mm that the laser must be switched on. Under pressure you may not remember. Grip activated is best if you if it works comfortably for you.

 

[SoCalDep]

To Bassman: I have CT laser sites on a 642 and a 686. I find that my normal grip does not press the laser button down enough to consistently make the light stay on. I must concentrate to make it work. Some of the readers will quickly announce that I should change my grip but I learned to shoot in Parris Island 60 years ago and can still usually hit what I shoot at. It would be best to try one first if you can. I have a nine mm that the laser must be switched on. Under pressure you may not remember. Grip activated is best if you if it works comfortably for you.

Good point! I had a set of CTC grips for my compact M&P (in fact, I bought my M&P9C with factory CTC grips installed) and found they just weren't comfortable with my normal shooting grip. The full-size is fine, but on the compact the rear of the laser hit a joint of my trigger finger and it never felt great, so I sold it and installed the large grip insert. It would be something to try before you buy if possible.

 

[Sgt 45]

I just tried them at my LGS on a M&P9C and almost walked out with the gun. I really like it. I shouldn't, but I may just go ahead and do it. It felt very comfortable in my hands and I was surprised at the trigger. Not a 1911, but still crisp. I like the way the laser activates with the grip. A very nice rig.

 

[ric_in_or]

I had a couple of different rail lasers on small 9mm pistols. I broke the lasers simply by shooting the pistols. - Not the carry / abuse. These were not CT brand.

Based on my experience, if I were to get another rail mount, I would include in the price a couple of boxes of full power defensive ammo - at least 50 rounds - and then shoot it with less than optimal grip - letting the gun bounce in the hand (not fall out). If the laser can't survive that, then you wouldn't want it.

Then good luck in finding a holster for the setup.