LASER SIGHTS - A BAD WAY TO START!

[chief38]

Good morning Gentlemen & Ladies,
I hope everybody had a wonderful and joyous Thanksgiving yesterday!

I went to the Range with a friend that has recently gotten into shooting and so I went to the range he joined, (I have never been there before). I saw that the majority of the pistol shooters there were using laser sights, most probably because the indoor range is part of a gun shop. The gun shop is BIG on selling laser grips when someone buys a new revolver or pistol. I witnessed a few of the guys there shooting their guns from positions that would not be used if they were aiming with iron sights. In other words, they were not holding their guns at the conventional shooting position, but rather at a more relaxed position that would be useless if not for their laser sights. They were hitting the paper, but very few bullet holes were anywhere near the black.

Then I starting shooting my model 15 (I do not own a laser sighted gun) and I was placing just about all my shots in the 10 ring, a few fliers here and there, but for the most part I shot well, and so a couple of the guys came over to me and asked .........hey man, how can you shoot that "antique" with no laser so well? I consider myself a pretty good shot, but I am sure there are many amongst the members on this Forum, so I don't consider myself anything special. These shooters were "blown away" Why......... well I thought about it on the way home, and I believe that the reason is that no none taught them to shoot, period. They started off with a laser sight which does not teach them the basics of shooting. Now I am not for or against laser sights, in fact I have never tried one, but I STRONGLY believe before you install one and rely on a battery powered gizmo, learn the basic essentials first. This way, you understand how a firearm was designed to be aimed and shot, and can fall back on that if the S.H.T.F. and your laser sight does not function.

OK, I guess I am showing my age (57) but these guys wanted to run before they learned to walk. I personally think that the gun shop selling these things to naive newbees owes it to them to run a beginners shooting class that teaches them the basics before they start bolting on new gizmos & gadgets. That class should not allow any laser sights, red dots, glow in the darks, etc. Then as they progress if they want to start with different types of sights, at least they will know and can fall back on the basics of shooting.

Well, I have said my piece.

Regards,
chief38

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Ah, but it takes effort to learn how to shoot, and time, and most of all, commitment to becoming proficient. So much easier just to lay out another couple of hundred and buy a technological "fix." I hope none of these guys ever has to actually use his firearm. You perform as you have trained, and these guys have never trained, not in any way that I would recognize anyway.


Bullseye

 

[blujax01]

Reminds me of when I used to play golf. I'd see a guy spend $300 on a new driver instead of spending $100 on a few lessons so he could learn to hit the old one.
As Bullseye said, it's easier to buy a fix.

 

[akviper]

They have their place but you are dead on regarding the need for learning the basics. Reliance on an electronic gadget instead of skill is a recipe for trouble if it fails. Hopefully you gave them some thing to think about and some of them will take the time to actually learn how to shoot.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Well the fundamentals are actually critical. I tend to agree that the laser sight when absent from traditional fundamental training, is probably an error in judgement for the inexperienced shooter. Basic skills utilizing what the weapon has for sights when it comes out of the box should never be bypassed for a quick fix. If you can master the fundamentals and you like the new technology as well, go for it. A dead battery shouldn't be the deciding factor in an encounter of the worst kind. I haven't used one (laser) and haven't been persuaded after 40 years of old school fundamentals that I really need one. But to each his own.

Cheers;
Lefty
BELL CHARTER OAK CUSTOM HOLSTERS (607) 783-2483

 

[Will Carry]

But they are "lasers"! It's like magic! LOL. I have seen people with laser sites that were so bad I thought I was back in the 70s at one of those laser light shows. Lasers have there place but only after you learn to shoot the old fashion way.

 

[Bat Guano]

Sights? We don't need no stinkin' sights.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

I have seen people with laser sites that were so bad I thought I was back in the 70s at one of those laser light shows.

lol, now that's funny

 

[scooter123]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Carry
I have seen people with laser sites that were so bad I thought I was back in the 70s at one of those laser light shows.

lol, now that's funny

That is funny and just a bit too true. However, if the person were trained to observe that dot for movement during the trigger pull it might actually prove to be an aid to learning good trigger control. Sadly, that bit of training sees to be lacking, you could get dizzy watching those dots bounce around.

I have recently installed Reflex sights on 3 of my revolvers because I can no longer focus on a handgun sight in the lighting typical to most indoor ranges. I can tell you that one side benefit is that at longer distances that aiming dot will reveal every single movement of the gun. The downside is that I found that I was becoming a bit too dependent on the reflex and my shooting with my non reflex equipped handguns was degrading. So, recently the reflex guns have been getting shot less and I'm spending a lot more time re-learning how to shoot with fuzzy sights. Today it paid off, in slow fire I put 5 out of 7 into the X ring at 50 feet, as for the two flyers, flinched on one and jerked the trigger on the other. Then I got bored with shooting for precision and started doing failure drills at 30 feet. Still need work in that area, I'm missing on the head shot occasionally.

 

[LVSteve]

I recently bought a new semi as the "house gun" and fitted it with a combined light and laser. Dry firing the gun with a snap cap and the laser on showed up something bad in my grip and trigger pull. It turns out the instruction to use the pad of the last joint (and only the pad) does not work for me because of the length of my fingers relative to the size and strength of the rest of my hands. Putting a little more finger through the guard so the edge of the trigger gets into the fold of the joint cures the problem. So, the laser has helped me become a better shooter on or off.

 

[SOFMatchstaff]

If I get a stoont wit a lazer, I use it to help diagnose the grip and trigger pull problems that are inherent in new shooters. After I have confirmed the zero of the laser, they are told to use the dot as a front sight, perched on top. Then watch the electrons dance around on the target as they chase the damn thing. It makes the jerk and heel really evident. About half of them decide its a non essential piece of equipment.

 

[LVSteve]

If I get a stoont wit a lazer, I use it to help diagnose the grip and trigger pull problems that are inherent in new shooters. After I have confirmed the zero of the laser, they are told to use the dot as a front sight, perched on top. Then watch the electrons dance around on the target as they chase the damn thing. It makes the jerk and heel really evident. About half of them decide its a non essential piece of equipment.

That's probably because they do not want everybody else to see their bad grip and trigger control.

In my case I went back to my guns without lasers and did more dry fire comparisons. Now I knew what to look for, it was clear I had been having this problem all along. The reduction of movement with iron sights at the break is such that I consider it pretty well eliminated.

 

[novalty]

I have one on my bedside gun, and although it isn't essential at the range, it sure makes one heck of a difference in the home-especially when you don't have night-sights. Knowing where exactly where your gun is pointed in house with a wife and 2 small kids, is reassuring. Now the 5906 is probably one of the most accurate fixed sight guns I have, unless I am making sure the laser is sighted in properly at the range, I generally don't use it.

 

[JohnnieB]

To an old guy like me, laser sights and other newfangled gadgets are simply tools whose proper use and correct application are skills and knowledge that must be acquired in addition to the basics.

I no longer have any guns with laser sights, but while I did, I found them to be useful in low-light situations, shooting from positions that didn't allow normal sighting and while dry firing.

I doubt if I'll ever buy anyoyher laser sight, but I occasionally use a laser bore sighter while dry firing to see what bad habits have creeped in since the last time I checked.

Like Chief38, I do okay with my Model 15 and have had young guys with tricked out bottom feeders wonder why an "antique" shooting an "antique" was shootin' better than they were.

John

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

The lasers certainly are good for shooting in awkward positions, and it can help a good shooter get better. BUT, OP nailed it when he mentioned it as an upsell to any and everyone buying a pistol and never learning how to shoot or proper gun safety.

I was shooting at a local shootin' hole down here, and some noobs with their laser sites were showing just how cool their 'gats' were and how cool they are to hold a weapon sideways like a rapper.

We saw one group of guys discharge a round a meter or so from their feet because they neglected the round in the chamber when they took their 'clips' out.

Sorry about the ramble, I just had a flash of everything that scares me about other shooters when I think of the dependency (more like play toy) with lasers.

The 'Floyd shows are a LOT more fun in that regard, haha.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

I occasionally use a laser bore sighter while dry firing to see what bad habits have creeped in since the last time I checked.


John

That's the best application for them IMHO

 

[JohnnieB]

That's the best application for them IMHO

It was a gift - I had to find something it was useful for.

 

[Bailey Boat]

Instant gratification, that's the only way most new shooters want to have it. They don't want to invest the time, effort or expense to learn how to do it any other way.

Let's talk about distance, I'll take an indoor shooter to my range (outdoor and a TRUE 25 yards) and they immediately think it's 50 yards!!!! "MY range isn't this long" is the first thing they say. I'm amazed at how many can't even hit the paper at this range. Why???? Can't see their laser dots in the sunlight!!!!!! Their amazed that at my age I CAN keep them in the black at "that" range.

As we move closer they are still amazed that my first shot time is less than theirs and more accurate. I see the front sight before they can find the red dot!!! Another concept that escapes them...... Some will ask "can you teach me how to do that"?? And I gladly teach them, and others just think its "luck"..... We know its not....

 

[n4zov]

They have their place but you are dead on regarding the need for learning the basics. Reliance on an electronic gadget instead of skill is a recipe for trouble if it fails. Hopefully you gave them some thing to think about and some of them will take the time to actually learn how to shoot.

Truer words were never written. So many young shooters don't know anything at all about marksmanship and what is involved in becoming proficient with a firearm. They just want to buy the solution.

 

[jlrhiner]

Technology rarely is a good replacement for skill. Relying on technology will sometimes dissappoint. When used as an aid, great. But what happens when the battery goes dead and you have nothing to rely on?