Law Enforcement & The M&P

[Doug M.]

While I am too anal to go very far without cleaning (a training scar), a quality firearm should go 1000s of rounds with only lube unless you are in weird conditions. A well built 1911 platform should easily go 2000; an AR 10,000 (which is actually past the parts inspection stages). Google "Filthy Fourteen" and you should see a pretty detailed report on several ARs that have gone to parts failure and worn out barrel without cleaning.

Remember the 4 important factors (Thanks to Dean Caputo): MEAL. Magazines, Extractor, Ammo, Lube.

Mags are wear items. When they poop out, hammer therapy; now they're targets. Extractor wear and fitting. Should not generally be an issue, although that's assuming one buys quality weapons. Ammo: Cheap ammo may give cheap outcomes. Use only quality ammo for serious purposes. Lube: CLPs suck. CLP is better than dry, but not close to being the right thing. Use good quality stuff designed to be a lube. There are plenty out there. ARs need to run wet.

 

[Cuda]

The issue sidearm as of a few few years ago for the Minneapolis PD is the M&P, in either 9 or .45 (I was surprised to see not .40).

Not certain of the exact model.

 

[UncaGrunny]

...a quality firearm should go 1000s of rounds with only lube unless you are in weird conditions.

I can go appx six weeks without food, six days without water, and six minutes without oxygen, per design spec.

Doesn't mean I should.

 

[The Viking]

I have carried one (actually two) for the past five years. To say I dislike it is an understatement. However, I won't go into the details. When I have in the past, like clockwork, folks start to claim that based on what they've read, what I've experienced can't be true. Then there are folks who actually own/carry one and will say based on their particular pistol (which, by the way, has gone over 100,000 rounds without a cleaning or a single failure of any kind) there is no way I either:

A) Know what I'm talking about
B) Have the slightest clue about the M &P series
C) Or am outright lying about my experiences

Anyway, in my OPINION (so as to not offend/hurt feelings/upset anyone) if you are considering staking your life on one, there are much better options out there.

I wish you would go into details as I am very interested in the faults you find with the pistol. If you have carried one for five years, you probably know more about it than most of us and your insights would be valuable.

 

[jimjc]

I have carried one (actually two) for the past five years. To say I dislike it is an understatement. However, I won't go into the details. When I have in the past, like clockwork, folks start to claim that based on what they've read, what I've experienced can't be true. Then there are folks who actually own/carry one and will say based on their particular pistol (which, by the way, has gone over 100,000 rounds without a cleaning or a single failure of any kind) there is no way I either:

A) Know what I'm talking about
B) Have the slightest clue about the M &P series
C) Or am outright lying about my experiences

Anyway, in my OPINION (so as to not offend/hurt feelings/upset anyone) if you are considering staking your life on one, there are much better options out there.

I`m getting a kick out of your post. This is the Internet there are all kinds of people posting for all kinds of reasons, some valid some not. Why waste your time saying "don`t stake your life on a M&P, unless you have a agenda. Like there`s something else out there that you can stake your life on 100% of the time, supprise there is nothing, because NOTHING IS 100% ever. But you with all your experience may know of something that is 100% all the time, so why not come back and enlighten us on what it is.

 

[kbm6893]

I do not believe NYPD has yet authorized the M&P. There have been rumors for a few years now, but some forum members with connections there have said it has not happened yet.

I'm retired NYPD and was in the academy last week talking to one of the range officers. He said the M&P was tested but they "blew them up". Each officer in the unit put 400 rounds through each one and they had cracking frames, backstrap, and trigger springs. Told me they are no longer being considered.

This isn't "I know a guy who knows a guy". This cop said he was in on the trials and they failed.

 

[The Viking]

I'm retired NYPD and was in the academy last week talking to one of the range officers. He said the M&P was tested but they "blew them up". Each officer in the unit put 400 rounds through each one and they had cracking frames, backstrap, and trigger springs. Told me they are no longer being considered.

This isn't "I know a guy who knows a guy". This cop said he was in on the trials and they failed.

Wow that is bad. I assume that when you say they blew them up you mean parts broken during firing? Do you know how many pistols were tested? 400 rounds is not a lot. You say each officer put 400 rounds through each one. How many officers and how many pistols? Was the caliber 9mm or 40cal? I would sure like to know a lot more about this test!
I have two 9mm one that has 1,000 + rounds through it and the other 2,000+ rounds through it and neither has given me any trouble. I have a 40 caliber that gave me a dead trigger and then light strikes. I had to send it back to Smith 4 times before that got straightened out.

 

[SoCalDep]

We have one test gun, and I have the data sheets with a documented 34,000 plus rounds before we finished the test with no major parts failure. I know of one gun, my partner's, that cracked a barrel and eventually the frame...That gun had 60,000 to 70,000 rounds through it with no recoil spring change. My range-issued M&P had around 30,000 rounds through it when I turned it in last week for a new one. It hadn't broken, we were just getting the updated version. My personal M&P has 10,000-15,000 rounds through it including over 5,000 rounds with no cleaning and no lubrication. My county-issued M&P has around 7,000-10,000 rounds through it with no malfunctions. None. I rarely clean any of them, though I do try to lube them regularly now.

We have had a small percentage of pistols with malfunction issues out of the box, but I know of no unacceptable breakage issues since 2009 and we have thousands of M&Ps in service.

This is not to say there are no pistols with problems. Every manufacturer will produce a small percentage of pistols that end up being lemons.

We have participating agencies in our academy and many of their recruits use Glocks. I have seen more malfunctions out of the small percentage of Glocks than I've seen from our large percentage of M&Ps, especially if they throw a weapon-light on the G23. In our last class a recruit broke a Sig, and one of the agencies that issued the HK USP 45 switched to the Glock 21 due to reliability issues.

Nothing is perfect and we can all only depend on the word of others (and we have to determine how reliable that is) or our own experiences. Thankfully, my own experience involves thousands of law enforcement officers, thousands of handguns, millions of rounds and a large base of personal experience with the handgun platform(s).

 

[The Viking]

We have one test gun, and I have the data sheets with a documented 34,000 plus rounds before we finished the test with no major parts failure. I know of one gun, my partner's, that cracked a barrel and eventually the frame...That gun had 60,000 to 70,000 rounds through it with no recoil spring change. My range-issued M&P had around 30,000 rounds through it when I turned it in last week for a new one. It hadn't broken, we were just getting the updated version. My personal M&P has 10,000-15,000 rounds through it including over 5,000 rounds with no cleaning and no lubrication. My county-issued M&P has around 7,000-10,000 rounds through it with no malfunctions. None. I rarely clean any of them, though I do try to lube them regularly now.

We have had a small percentage of pistols with malfunction issues out of the box, but I know of no unacceptable breakage issues since 2009 and we have thousands of M&Ps in service.

This is not to say there are no pistols with problems. Every manufacturer will produce a small percentage of pistols that end up being lemons.

We have participating agencies in our academy and many of their recruits use Glocks. I have seen more malfunctions out of the small percentage of Glocks than I've seen from our large percentage of M&Ps, especially if they throw a weapon-light on the G23. In our last class a recruit broke a Sig, and one of the agencies that issued the HK USP 45 switched to the Glock 21 due to reliability issues.

Nothing is perfect and we can all only depend on the word of others (and we have to determine how reliable that is) or our own experiences. Thankfully, my own experience involves thousands of law enforcement officers, thousands of handguns, millions of rounds and a large base of personal experience with the handgun platform(s).

Thank you for replying. The information is appreciated. Some time ago, I had read an article by a SWAT officer who said he had put 5,000 rounds through an M&P 45 without cleaning it. It would seem people have different experiences with this firearm. I wonder what the competitive shooters say. No one puts more rounds through their pistol than those folks.

 

[Bkreutz]

Thank you for replying. The information is appreciated. Some time ago, I had read an article by a SWAT officer who said he had put 5,000 rounds through an M&P 45 without cleaning it. It would seem people have different experiences with this firearm. I wonder what the competitive shooters say. No one puts more rounds through their pistol than those folks.

OK, I'll bite on what the competitive shooters say. I shoot ~ 1200 rounds a week, every week including match counts (which is a low percentage of the total). I usually clean every 2 weeks except before a major match and then I clean it, shoot 1 practice round and then the match. My current 9L Pro has over 20K rounds through it and still has the original recoil springs. I have changed the extractor (not because it broke) and have spare parts and a spare pistol in my range bag but never have used either. I see lots of failures at matches but can't remember the last time an M&P had a failure. (maybe never?).

I have to be fair and admit to 2 failure to fire episodes. In both cases the "store bought" ammo had the primers in backwards.

 

[SoCalDep]

No problem. I think it's important to remember that people will have different experiences with any firearm. I had a Glock 17 that was one of the most unreliable pistols I've ever owned. That doesn't mean the Glock 17 is a bad gun. It only means I got a bad one.

Numerous competitors use the M&P, but same with Glock, 1911s, etc... If you ask those sponsored by the company, they will say it's a great gun. That's to be expected. If you ask someone sponsored by another company, they will say it's not as good as their make.

I do know that at the last several competitions I've attended, the M&P has been out in force, to include the entire LASD and LAPD shooting teams.

 

[kbm6893]

Wow that is bad. I assume that when you say they blew them up you mean parts broken during firing? Do you know how many pistols were tested? 400 rounds is not a lot. You say each officer put 400 rounds through each one. How many officers and how many pistols? Was the caliber 9mm or 40cal? I would sure like to know a lot more about this test!
I have two 9mm one that has 1,000 + rounds through it and the other 2,000+ rounds through it and neither has given me any trouble. I have a 40 caliber that gave me a dead trigger and then light strikes. I had to send it back to Smith 4 times before that got straightened out.

9mm. 400 rounds per gun per officer. About 60 guys in the firearms and tactics section but not every officer took part due to vacations and sick leave. Probably 15000 rounds fired but the problems started early he said. I was shocked. We use Speer gold dot 124 grain +p

 

[KarmannGhia]

I was in the last academy class (Dekalb Co PD -GA) issued Beretta 92Gs. I liked the Beretta because I had been using it in the Army for the last 18 yrs (we had the 1911s when I first came in). My department switched to M&P 40s and after a few officer NDs things started to settle down.
I really like my M&P but it would not be "my" first choice, if I could choose. I haven't had any problems, but the SWAT guys have managed to break a few and they are not happy about it.

I carry a second gun (on duty) for a reason.

 

[millisec]

I don't quite do 1200 rounds a week these days but I practice and often shoot 3+ matches a month when time permits.

With my first release M&P 9 FS I put in excess of 6000 rounds through it w/o ever an issue (even shot matches below freezing in the snow in Boone NC). I am somewhat anal and clean at least every other time I shoot and oil liberally though. I got a M&P Pro in 2009 and the round count is much higher than that. I did have some problems with it out of the box but it was an overly tight spring. I am still to this day using the guide rod and spring from the FS in the Pro. I still have 3 new ISMI springs and a non captured guide rod sitting in my range bag unused. Other than Apex striker, sear block and springs I got in 2009 nothing on gun has broken or been replaced. Still running the factory ejector and old sear block too. My shield was ridiculously tight new but after break in I have not had any issues either. Maybe I'm fortunate but I've never had to send a gun back to S&W or get it otherwise repaired. The majority of what I shoot is fairly hot 124g FMJ hand loads. As for commercial I have also shot at least 2000 124g 9mm NATO (basically +P). If LE is really blowing up M&Ps with 500rd runs it must have been some crazy torture test with +P+ loads. In any case I still find that claim hard to believe and the test rigged for failure. I have a Sig 220 match (I think ~2007) that's 100% factory and its never failed me either with 1000's of rounds downrange. Guns are like cars... sometimes you get a great one and sometimes you get a lemon regardless of brand.

 

[Don 73]

I've got between 500 and 750 rounds through my 9c (yes I know, it's still a baby) and so far the ONLY failure was due to a hand loaded round that failed to feed. I would feel more than comfortable carrying a full-sized M&P on duty, in fact we also have security guards that are transitioning to autos and the majority of them picked the fs M&P9 over the G17 or G19

 

[The Viking]

OK, I'll bite on what the competitive shooters say. I shoot ~ 1200 rounds a week, every week including match counts (which is a low percentage of the total). I usually clean every 2 weeks except before a major match and then I clean it, shoot 1 practice round and then the match. My current 9L Pro has over 20K rounds through it and still has the original recoil springs. I have changed the extractor (not because it broke) and have spare parts and a spare pistol in my range bag but never have used either. I see lots of failures at matches but can't remember the last time an M&P had a failure. (maybe never?).

I have to be fair and admit to 2 failure to fire episodes. In both cases the "store bought" ammo had the primers in backwards.

Appreciate the information. That experience is invaluable in evaluating the firearm. It is hard to make sense out of some of the posts about its failure. I know at the IDPA Nationals the S&W M&P was the second most popular firearm used.

 

[The Viking]

I've got between 500 and 750 rounds through my 9c (yes I know, it's still a baby) and so far the ONLY failure was due to a hand loaded round that failed to feed. I would feel more than comfortable carrying a full-sized M&P on duty, in fact we also have security guards that are transitioning to autos and the majority of them picked the fs M&P9 over the G17 or G19

A pistol course I went through a few weeks ago had two fellows shooting S&W M&P's. One was a compact the other a full size S&W M&P. I know the person shooting the compact had more than 1,000 rounds through it before the course. We shot at least 600 rounds through the pistols that weekend. Neither of the two S&W gave those participants any trouble. I watched two Glocks go down with troubles and there was only 11 people in that course. Other than myself and the two S&W shooters, the rest were shooting Glocks. I was shooting a PPQ M2 to evaluate it. I had two inadvertent magazine releases and it went full auto once.

 

[The Viking]

9mm. 400 rounds per gun per officer. About 60 guys in the firearms and tactics section but not every officer took part due to vacations and sick leave. Probably 15000 rounds fired but the problems started early he said. I was shocked. We use Speer gold dot 124 grain +p

The only thing I can think of is they must have gotten a really bad batch of pistols. I wonder if they notified S&W of the test?

 

[S&W Fan]

Never have seen a cop carry an M&P. only guys I've seen them with is the ones running a brinks truck.

You must not get out much.

 

[Fire Dog]

The Winston-Salem PD is using the M&P 40 and testing to switch to the M&P 9.