Just wondering if any non-gunsmiths here have shortened a barrel or recrowned one, either success or failure in terms of accuracy, and what methods were used. Really thinking of rifle barrels, but I suppose the question is similar either way.
Laymen - have you shortened a barrel or recrowned?
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I guess I am a "laymen", No formal gunsmith training. I have a lathe. Shortening a barrel isn't hard. The muzzle is a bit of work to get right. You can get crown tools that simplify it. Square and uniform. I made a ball that mounted on a shaft and used emery cloth for initial clean up and polish and then a rounded piece of brass with valve lapping compound to polish. I don't think fine polishing has any effect on accuracy though.
on revolvers reattaching front sights is much more of a challenge. Older S&W have a piece under the sight ramp that sitsin a slot and is held by 2 small cross pins. Re drilling those .050 cross pins straight is a bear. Messed that up once. Got the first one perfect and had the second one wander and come out to high. Next one I did with blind holes drilled just a bit past the key for ramp and only had to finish one end of the pins and no worries about where hole came out on other side. Much easier to make the base fit well, tin it with low temp silver solder then solder it in place.
Done a couple rifle barrels. But them you can chuck up in a lathe easer, use a little piece of copper or brass on each jaw. Chuck as close as possible to cut. If your going to run a scope, no sight worries. But, most rifle sights are screwed. Usually small screw holes are easy if you drill then tap without removing piece. That way tap lines up perfect. Turn the tap by turning the drill chuck by hand.
I have never had a drop in accuracy. I am going to mount a Remington model 700 223 barrel on a Mohawk 600 that had a 222 barrel. Going to chop the 223 barrel down to 18 1/2". I expect good accuracy. Cut a model 700 6mm barrel to 15" and stuck it on a XP100 and it shoots great. Have done a bunch off 22 barrels. Buy old 22 bolt actions, tune em up and shorten them up. Gave one to each one of my kids. All shoot good.
I don't think I would try it without a lathe. But, you could probably do it though. Carefully hacksaw it of a bit long, then square it up with a file, then a fine file. Get a ball bearing an wrap it in emery cloth and use random motions, going to 600 grit. The inmportant part is square and uniform
on revolvers reattaching front sights is much more of a challenge. Older S&W have a piece under the sight ramp that sitsin a slot and is held by 2 small cross pins. Re drilling those .050 cross pins straight is a bear. Messed that up once. Got the first one perfect and had the second one wander and come out to high. Next one I did with blind holes drilled just a bit past the key for ramp and only had to finish one end of the pins and no worries about where hole came out on other side. Much easier to make the base fit well, tin it with low temp silver solder then solder it in place.
Done a couple rifle barrels. But them you can chuck up in a lathe easer, use a little piece of copper or brass on each jaw. Chuck as close as possible to cut. If your going to run a scope, no sight worries. But, most rifle sights are screwed. Usually small screw holes are easy if you drill then tap without removing piece. That way tap lines up perfect. Turn the tap by turning the drill chuck by hand.
I have never had a drop in accuracy. I am going to mount a Remington model 700 223 barrel on a Mohawk 600 that had a 222 barrel. Going to chop the 223 barrel down to 18 1/2". I expect good accuracy. Cut a model 700 6mm barrel to 15" and stuck it on a XP100 and it shoots great. Have done a bunch off 22 barrels. Buy old 22 bolt actions, tune em up and shorten them up. Gave one to each one of my kids. All shoot good.
I don't think I would try it without a lathe. But, you could probably do it though. Carefully hacksaw it of a bit long, then square it up with a file, then a fine file. Get a ball bearing an wrap it in emery cloth and use random motions, going to 600 grit. The inmportant part is square and uniform
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schutzen-jager
Member
I have done three in past year - round .22 Remington rifle barrels - - used a tubing cutter to scribe line to be cut - saw off as straight as possible - use eyeball + small square to get cut trued up with file - crowned using brass ball + valve grinding compounds - accuracy on two improved + one stayed the same under controlled conditions -
also used the same method on a S&W Brazilian a few year back that had a bend 2" back from muzzle , only problem was finding a barrel band front sight to complete job -
also used the same method on a S&W Brazilian a few year back that had a bend 2" back from muzzle , only problem was finding a barrel band front sight to complete job -
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schutzen-jager
Member
one of the first ones I did 5 years ago - sorry but not good at pictures or computers -
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I guess I was really thinking a Layman without a Lathe!
That is because the idea of taking a barrel off even by a professional, still freaks me out. Although I guess it shouldn't.
While I wouldn't try this at home on a premium rifle, I might try it on one that has seen better days or just doesn't stand to lose anything.
I like the idea of marking the barrel with a tube cutter to make a place for the sawblade.
That is because the idea of taking a barrel off even by a professional, still freaks me out. Although I guess it shouldn't.
While I wouldn't try this at home on a premium rifle, I might try it on one that has seen better days or just doesn't stand to lose anything.
I like the idea of marking the barrel with a tube cutter to make a place for the sawblade.
geeollie
Member
Midway USA used to have some gun-smithing videos on line as well as Brownells. Watching and reading about different ways can be helpful. There are re-crownimg tools that can be used in a handheld drill. Thats seems fairly easy.
I think your approach to first trying on a beater barrel is smart. Go for it!
I think your approach to first trying on a beater barrel is smart. Go for it!
You can certainly cut and recrown a rifle bbl w/hand tools.
As already mentioned, the main thing to keep in mind is to keep the face of the barrel (muzzle) perpendicular with the bore.
This does NOT necessarily mean the face of muzzle will be perpendicular (square) with the side(s) of the bbl itself at the muzzle.
Bbls especially rifles, are a lot of the time tapered even if just by a couple degrees down towards the muzzle.
Placing a machinists square on the side of the ever so slightly tapered bbl and working the muzzle over w/a file to bring that portion to square is a effort in frustration when working around the rest of the muzzle.
The muzzle will never be square with the bore. The bore is not parallel with the side(s) of the bbl that you are checking from.
Plus bbls are often polished and rounded a bit at the very end from spin polishing. That leaves a not so straight surface to check against. Just the way things go in the work.
You can do it by 'eye' and get very close. You will end up with a flat muzzle surface with crisp rifling lands and grooves showing at the edge of the muzzle.
You can 'break' the very edge of those lands and grooves with the techniques described above. They so a good job. Don't over do it. It's not intended to put a deep recessed type crown on the muzzle like most factory bbls have. That's a lathe and crowning tool job generally.
If the bore is big enough you can put a deep full crown on the muzzle with just files and a lot of careful hand work. The narrow onglette shaped file work great for this.
DO NOT nick the inside of the bore with the tip of the file while working down the recess like this.
Large bore rifles are not hard to do, shotgun bbls very easy. When you get into medium bore and below you are really setting up a test of skill for your self.
..Don't be tempted to use a Dremel w/a grinding tip in it to recess the crown. You may as well just cut the extra 1/4" or so off that got Dremeled and start over.
Mark the bbl for the hacksaw cut,,measure it a couple times and leave it long!
I just make a pencil mark or scratch and cut it. It's got to be filed to length and square anyway so no great time and effort is wasted on that.
Use a good sharp hacksaw blade and you'll go a long ways towards making a nice straight cut w/o effort. The blades they sell today don't last too long.
Even those lathe cut crowns can be nice to look at but if the bore was not centered and instead just run in the lathe and the OD of the bbl allowed to determine the smooth spin, the bore can be off center (not uncommon).
Cutting a crown with a lathe tool on that off center bore leaves you with just that. A crown that is uneven as far as the lands and grooves exit point.It may good good but not shoot good.
You can rent crowning tools from the same companys that rent chambering reamers.
Some tools are hand op,,others are ment to be used in a lathe.
Crowning Tools (rentals) Archives - 4D Reamer Rentals
The tools use a pilot for the bore and then cut a clean 90* face on the bbl. You can follow that up with a shallow recessed crown (usually 11*) with the same tool by changing the cutter.
The same tools are sold by Brownells. They work well.
I use the tool sometimes to face off the muzzle nice and square. Then put a rounded outside 'crown' on the bbl by hand with files. Then a shallow inner crown with either the same tool or one of the old methods.
My current lathe won't let me put many of the rifle bbls in it the old monster used to. But I don't do bbl work anymore anyway aside from stuff like this and I get along w/o it.
As already mentioned, the main thing to keep in mind is to keep the face of the barrel (muzzle) perpendicular with the bore.
This does NOT necessarily mean the face of muzzle will be perpendicular (square) with the side(s) of the bbl itself at the muzzle.
Bbls especially rifles, are a lot of the time tapered even if just by a couple degrees down towards the muzzle.
Placing a machinists square on the side of the ever so slightly tapered bbl and working the muzzle over w/a file to bring that portion to square is a effort in frustration when working around the rest of the muzzle.
The muzzle will never be square with the bore. The bore is not parallel with the side(s) of the bbl that you are checking from.
Plus bbls are often polished and rounded a bit at the very end from spin polishing. That leaves a not so straight surface to check against. Just the way things go in the work.
You can do it by 'eye' and get very close. You will end up with a flat muzzle surface with crisp rifling lands and grooves showing at the edge of the muzzle.
You can 'break' the very edge of those lands and grooves with the techniques described above. They so a good job. Don't over do it. It's not intended to put a deep recessed type crown on the muzzle like most factory bbls have. That's a lathe and crowning tool job generally.
If the bore is big enough you can put a deep full crown on the muzzle with just files and a lot of careful hand work. The narrow onglette shaped file work great for this.
DO NOT nick the inside of the bore with the tip of the file while working down the recess like this.
Large bore rifles are not hard to do, shotgun bbls very easy. When you get into medium bore and below you are really setting up a test of skill for your self.
..Don't be tempted to use a Dremel w/a grinding tip in it to recess the crown. You may as well just cut the extra 1/4" or so off that got Dremeled and start over.
Mark the bbl for the hacksaw cut,,measure it a couple times and leave it long!
I just make a pencil mark or scratch and cut it. It's got to be filed to length and square anyway so no great time and effort is wasted on that.
Use a good sharp hacksaw blade and you'll go a long ways towards making a nice straight cut w/o effort. The blades they sell today don't last too long.
Even those lathe cut crowns can be nice to look at but if the bore was not centered and instead just run in the lathe and the OD of the bbl allowed to determine the smooth spin, the bore can be off center (not uncommon).
Cutting a crown with a lathe tool on that off center bore leaves you with just that. A crown that is uneven as far as the lands and grooves exit point.It may good good but not shoot good.
You can rent crowning tools from the same companys that rent chambering reamers.
Some tools are hand op,,others are ment to be used in a lathe.
Crowning Tools (rentals) Archives - 4D Reamer Rentals
The tools use a pilot for the bore and then cut a clean 90* face on the bbl. You can follow that up with a shallow recessed crown (usually 11*) with the same tool by changing the cutter.
The same tools are sold by Brownells. They work well.
I use the tool sometimes to face off the muzzle nice and square. Then put a rounded outside 'crown' on the bbl by hand with files. Then a shallow inner crown with either the same tool or one of the old methods.
My current lathe won't let me put many of the rifle bbls in it the old monster used to. But I don't do bbl work anymore anyway aside from stuff like this and I get along w/o it.
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I've always opted to sell or trade a gun with a barrel too long for my liking and just buy what length I wanted. That said, there are a few guys who really enjoy doing the work themselves and actually enjoy the process. I can relate to that and as long as one has the skills, tools and ability to do so I see nothing wrong with that. Monetarily it probably does not pay any longer as quality Gunsmithing is expensive!
gwpercle
Member
Did two, a 1895 7x57 military mauser barrel , the original stepped one that came with the rifle and a old 12 gauge pump shotgun barrel .
On both I scored a line around the barrel with a new sharp pipe cutter , cut it deep enough to give me a good groove to follow . Finished up with a very fine blade in my hand held hack saw. If you practice you can learn to cut smooth and straight , use the groove as a guide to keep your cut straight and square .
Finished up both with fine flat files and Wet or Dry abrasive paper.
Crowned the rifle barrel with a brass ball and valve grinding compounds . I'm not new to cutting metal with hand tools and the proper use of files.... a lost art today but in the 1960's we had and used hand tools much more than machines. I could even hand cut checkering with simple checkering tools ...another lost art.
Gary
Just call me Bubba
On both I scored a line around the barrel with a new sharp pipe cutter , cut it deep enough to give me a good groove to follow . Finished up with a very fine blade in my hand held hack saw. If you practice you can learn to cut smooth and straight , use the groove as a guide to keep your cut straight and square .
Finished up both with fine flat files and Wet or Dry abrasive paper.
Crowned the rifle barrel with a brass ball and valve grinding compounds . I'm not new to cutting metal with hand tools and the proper use of files.... a lost art today but in the 1960's we had and used hand tools much more than machines. I could even hand cut checkering with simple checkering tools ...another lost art.
Gary
Just call me Bubba
Arquebus357
Member
Yes.... a model 64 from 4" to 3".
The barrel was completely stripped of roll markings and the top rib was removed. A trench was dug for a new sight blade which was silver brazed ( 56% silver worked at 1200 deg F.) into place. Crowning done with ceramic stones. Yes, I'm a Bubba.
I should add....all done with simple hand tools plus a Dremel with diamond infused burrs.
The barrel was completely stripped of roll markings and the top rib was removed. A trench was dug for a new sight blade which was silver brazed ( 56% silver worked at 1200 deg F.) into place. Crowning done with ceramic stones. Yes, I'm a Bubba.
I should add....all done with simple hand tools plus a Dremel with diamond infused burrs.
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Good info all around!
Nice job on that 64.
I will say I am not sure crown rifling is always as critical as some believe. I say this because I got a revolver for a project and it was found with about 30% of the rifling at the crown missing from pitting. Completely gone, flat to the bore surface or lower. Figured it was ruined. The pistol shot perfectly. As accurate and consistent as any pistol I ever owned.
Of course the result with high speed rifle rounds might be different.
Nice job on that 64.
I will say I am not sure crown rifling is always as critical as some believe. I say this because I got a revolver for a project and it was found with about 30% of the rifling at the crown missing from pitting. Completely gone, flat to the bore surface or lower. Figured it was ruined. The pistol shot perfectly. As accurate and consistent as any pistol I ever owned.
Of course the result with high speed rifle rounds might be different.
Arquebus357
Member
Yes...I agree. I can understand though, if you have a lot of money tied up in machine tools, You might think of it as being very critical. Crowning for a 3" barrel revolver. ?
My hi-tech crowning tools. There is also a white ball shaped stone that seems to have gone walkabout.
My hi-tech crowning tools. There is also a white ball shaped stone that seems to have gone walkabout.
Daniel Howe
US Veteran
My Dad had a Savage 110L he said was so long it wouldn't fit in his car. I cut the barrel down to 22" with a power hacksaw. Squared it off with a 12" disc sander. Chucked a 3/8" carriage bolt in a cordless drill with fine valve grinding compound to make the crown. He's hitting quarters at 400 yards with it so must have got it pretty close.
Two years later I bought a lathe.
Two years later I bought a lathe.
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OLDSTER
Member
Years ago ( and not even trying to be a gun smith) I was given an early model 10 that looked like the muzzle had been used as a hammer. So I proceeded to whack it off at about 3 "with a hack saw, then kind of did a crown thing with some files, and polished it with emery cloth. My old neighbor fashioned a front sight from an old file and soldered it in place. Never refinished it, and eventually gave it to the old guy. Actually turned out very good, and shot like a dream.
bigggbbruce
Member
I took a pipe cutter to a barrel on a $50 Stevens shotgun I have..
gwpercle
Member
Surprisingly good work can be achieved with ordinary hand tools and careful workmanship . Back in the 60's we took shop classes in school , in Junior High , High School and College (Southeastern Louisiana College) that covered using nothing but hand tools in both wood working and metal shop classes . I still have and use most of the things I made in those classes.
I'm sure things like this are no longer taught ... I was a IT major ....back then IT stood for Industrial Technology not Information Technology !!!!
Kind of a shame that kids will never know what they can do with their hands . In High School wood shop class I made a solid body electric guitar out of Red Mahogany ...got an A+, teacher was impressed .
Computers , CNC machines and 3D Printers ...or it can't be done..Sad .
Gary
I'm sure things like this are no longer taught ... I was a IT major ....back then IT stood for Industrial Technology not Information Technology !!!!
Kind of a shame that kids will never know what they can do with their hands . In High School wood shop class I made a solid body electric guitar out of Red Mahogany ...got an A+, teacher was impressed .
Computers , CNC machines and 3D Printers ...or it can't be done..Sad .
Gary
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LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Back in the 1970's I modified a couple of old .22 single-shot rifles for my boys to use. Cut the butt-stocks down to youth size dimensions and cut the barrels down to 18" lengths. I used a pipe cutter to scribe a line around the barrel, hand-held hacksaw to make the cut, disc sander to smooth out the muzzle end, and a cone-shaped ceramic ball in a drill brace to re-crown. Cut new 3/8" dovetails to re-mount the front sights using a mill file and triangular file.
Both worked out just fine, and both have seen long working lives with the great-grandchildren as they came along. Recently had a 4th great-grandchild so I expect those little .22's will continue in service.
I don't think I paid more than about $20 for either of those old used .22 rifles, and I know I couldn't afford to spend much on the conversions. I just used what I had on hand (or could borrow easily), a little thought, and some elbow grease.
Both worked out just fine, and both have seen long working lives with the great-grandchildren as they came along. Recently had a 4th great-grandchild so I expect those little .22's will continue in service.
I don't think I paid more than about $20 for either of those old used .22 rifles, and I know I couldn't afford to spend much on the conversions. I just used what I had on hand (or could borrow easily), a little thought, and some elbow grease.
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Yes, with some fairly basic tools you can cut down a barrel and it can still be accurate. If the muzzle end of the rifling is worn away due to corrosion or improper cleaning, it can end up being more accurate. I hacksawed a .243 Winchester barrel on a M98 receiver due to worn rifling. Trued the cut with files and a small 90* carpenter's angle, broke the sharp edges with a chamfering tool. The rifle worked just fine and the accuracy was a little better.
I also had an old shotgun that split its barrel from the bead sight to the muzzle. Hacksawed off the damaged end, placed a band style slug sight, worked great!
Attaching metal sights can be the challenge when shortening a barrel, especially revolver barrels.
I also had an old shotgun that split its barrel from the bead sight to the muzzle. Hacksawed off the damaged end, placed a band style slug sight, worked great!
Attaching metal sights can be the challenge when shortening a barrel, especially revolver barrels.
