Leather holsters thickness/weight

[Naphtali]

I have 4 excellent single action holsters by Wes Daems of 7X Leather in Ennis, Montana. They use the heaviest leather weight of all holsters owned by me or friends - until recently. I bought a Bianchi 1880 holster for Laurie. It has demonstrably thicker leather than I've seen before.

I don't know if present Bianchi owner makes this or the 1872 Mexican Loop holster anymore. If they do, I doubt the present owner has maintained the quality and leather weight.

Can anyone identify leather weight/thickness of the John Bianchi era? Is anyone making Mexican Loop holsters comparable?

 

[rednichols]

I suppose no one else will know how to answer your query. If you had included an image your readers would've known it is a leather lined holster, which does create something quite substantial. And we glued every layer so the laminate became even more substantial (resist compression).

That holster is lined with the same cowhide as the outer layer, likely two layers of 7 ounce but memory fails me.

FYI: 'thicker' is not a sign of quality. But that lining shows quality because veg cowhide for a lining is FAR more costly to the maker than the typical suede lining, such as on the Bianchi 1898 that is a 'split' lining (very inexpensive).

Bottom line: you want to repeat that elsewhere, look for the sewing 'round the perimeter and for a callout that it's cowhide lined. I don't keep track of who does what any more but I'd look to either Galco or EPS first, not today's Bianchi. Like the parent company Safariland they just make 'things' that people call holsters nowadays.

 

[StrawHat]

… Is anyone making Mexican Loop holsters comparable?
[/FONT]

Several members of this forum can make your holster.

Custom Leathersmiths on the Forum

Kevin

 

[chief38]

IMHO if a maker uses a thicker leather it is often a sign of cheaper Cowhide! A leather holster should be as thin as possible and as light weight as possible creating the least amount of bulk BUT offering superior weapon retention. That is exactly why I will ONLY use Kramer's Horsehide Leather products. They are almost as stiff as Kydex, very thin, super strong and tuff and in the decades I have used them, none have ever worn out. In fact, they are just as tight today as when I got them.

I never cared much for Bianchi holsters because the ones I have had were way too thick, bulky and heavy! I bought them before I knew any better.

 

[Naphtali]

Red Nichols' reply responded right to my query with clarity. Each responders furnished useful and clear information. Many thanks for making my future holster buys easier and more purposeful.

 

[rednichols]

IMHO if a maker uses a thicker leather it is often a sign of cheaper Cowhide! A leather holster should be as thin as possible and as light weight as possible creating the least amount of bulk BUT offering superior weapon retention. That is exactly why I will ONLY use Kramer's Horsehide Leather products. They are almost as stiff as Kydex, very thin, super strong and tuff and in the decades I have used them, none have ever worn out. In fact, they are just as tight today as when I got them.

I never cared much for Bianchi holsters because the ones I have had were way too thick, bulky and heavy! I bought them before I knew any better.

One would have to be a very advanced consumer to embrace that mantra. Which i am and agree completely. But research in the 70s showed us at Bianchi that consumers in general place a high value on leather that at least LOOKS thick. I too am a big fan of thin but stiff horsehide and when i stopped buildong i then was able convince Gene Desantis to add horsehide to his range. Expensive!

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

One would have to be a very advanced consumer to embrace that mantra. Which i am and agree completely. But research in the 70s showed us at Bianchi that consumers in general place a high value on leather that at least LOOKS thick. I too am a big fan of thin but stiff horsehide and when i stopped buildong i then was able convince Gene Desantis to add horsehide to his range. Expensive!

Sorry if I'm off topic. Red I'm very happy to read you again on these pages, you were missed.

 

[rednichols]

Sorry if I'm off topic. Red I'm very happy to read you again on these pages, you were missed.

I'm not back. It just seemed to me, when the OP got no replies, that I was the only one familiar enough with the holster in question.

I've been able to resist the foolishness going on on the CCW subforum about appendix carry. As George Burns famously said to his 'doctor' about having sex with younger women, "if they die, they die".

 

[chief38]

One would have to be a very advanced consumer to embrace that mantra. Which i am and agree completely. But research in the 70s showed us at Bianchi that consumers in general place a high value on leather that at least LOOKS thick. I too am a big fan of thin but stiff horsehide and when i stopped buildong i then was able convince Gene Desantis to add horsehide to his range. Expensive!

I have actually been to the DeSantis factory and have met Gene many years ago when I lived on Long Island. For the money DeSantis makes a descent holster as I have much experience with his goods. Again, for the money. The horsehide he used (IMO) was not the same grade as Kramer uses. As we all know there are steaks and then there are steaks! The grades are the difference even within the same cut of meat. Same thing with leather.

Yes, Kramer's Horsehide holsters, let's say for a Sig P365 will currently run around $140 - $150 + shipping. The wait will be around 3-4 months (he makes them from your order) but IMHO there has never been a better holster to come onto the market! I have no interest in the company financially and he would not know me if he ran me over, but I don't even consider anyone else's products when buying leather goods for guns (including his belts and magazine pouches). Thankfully I can afford the price of around $400+ for a Kramer rig (belt, mag holder and holster) and they are a lifetime investment in my mind.

Over the last 50 years I have owned more holsters, belts, mag pouches, ammo loops than I care to admit and have never found better. I have owned some pretty pricy custom rigs also such as Milt Sparks, Bruce Nelson, Mitch Rosen, etc. and while they are all excellent rigs in their own right, for me I like Kramer's Horsehide the best. BTW, some of mine are 30+ years old and still look, function and fit like new. And yes, they have been used a lot!

As you so eloquently stated above, "looks" are a very important part of marketing - I get that big time! I know as I was in my own business for most of my adult life. That said, 'looks' wear off and at the end of the day fit, function, practicality and longevity trump looks, at least for me. Don't get me wrong, I still have a bunch of DeSantis, Bianchi, Cobra, El Paso, JP, Colt, S&W, etc. etc. holsters in my drawer and they still make range trips on occasion but none are used for serious EDC.

 

[rednichols]

I have actually been to the DeSantis factory and have met Gene many years ago when I lived on Long Island. For the money DeSantis makes a descent holster as I have much experience with his goods. Again, for the money. The horsehide he used (IMO) was not the same grade as Kramer uses. As we all know there are steaks and then there are steaks! The grades are the difference even within the same cut of meat. Same thing with leather.

I'm afraid you are wrong about leather grading, which is not done to meet what a user would think is 'quality'. An A simply has no visible defects that must be cut around, such as a brand. The B can have a defect that is less than a specified amount of the surface, ditto a C can have more surface. So 'grading' is done, to get more $$ for the tanner from the buyer. Galco makes an issue of buying only A grade but that does not yield better quality for you, the consumer. It only yields better cutting economy for Galco. Any individual scar can be cut around and the resulting blank will be flawless.

Of course a hide that is covered by barbed wire scars is another matter! And it will be graded very low. Tanners get very little extra for an A grade over a B grade, but the maker will have trouble getting enough Bs to supply his/her needs. And tanners get very little more for another ounce of thickness; think of thickness as 'whats left over after splitting to level'.

From a recent Galco online video; I see that Gene uses the same equipment from his own online video. Those small, clear pieces among the cutouts will be separately cut into small parts, later. Otherwise to see so much waste is quite horrifying.

 

[chief38]

I'm afraid you are wrong about leather grading, which is not done to meet what a user would think is 'quality'. An A simply has no visible defects that must be cut around, such as a brand. The B can have a defect that is less than a specified amount of the surface, ditto a C can have more surface. So 'grading' is done, to get more $$ for the tanner from the buyer. Galco makes an issue of buying only A grade but that does not yield better quality for you, the consumer. It only yields better cutting economy for Galco. Any individual scar can be cut around and the resulting blank will be flawless.

Of course a hide that is covered by barbed wire scars is another matter! And it will be graded very low. Tanners get very little extra for an A grade over a B grade, but the maker will have trouble getting enough Bs to supply his/her needs. And tanners get very little more for another ounce of thickness; think of thickness as 'whats left over after splitting to level'.

From a recent Galco online video; I see that Gene uses the same equipment from his own online video. Those small, clear pieces among the cutouts will be separately cut into small parts, later. Otherwise to see so much waste is quite horrifying.

I am no expert on leather or Horsehide. That said, I am still curious as to why some Horsehide is just so much stiffer, stronger while being still thinner than others. I've seen other company's Horsehide goods and they were just not as good as the Kramer products. I suppose that could also be due to the processing and treating of the leather. As a layman I'd also think horsehide leather quality would be determined by where it comes from, the breed of horse, what the horses ate, climate, how they were bred, etc. etc. Is there no merit to that? Don't some horses yield better leather than other breeds? Other than being an end user, I know little about horsehide leather grading. I do know that almost anything in nature always has different grades as far as durability - I thought leather was pretty much the same deal.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I am no expert on leather or Horsehide. That said, I am still curious as to why some Horsehide is just so much stiffer, stronger while being still thinner than others. I've seen other company's Horsehide goods and they were just not as good as the Kramer products. I suppose that could also be due to the processing and treating of the leather. As a layman I'd also think horsehide leather quality would be determined by where it comes from, the breed of horse, what the horses ate, climate, how they were bred, etc. etc. Is there no merit to that? Don't some horses yield better leather than other breeds? Other than being an end user, I know little about horsehide leather grading. I do know that almost anything in nature always has different grades as far as durability - I thought leather was pretty much the same deal.

Horsehide is considerably more dense than cowhide, generally providing equal strength with less bulk. Horsehide is also more resistant to moisture absorption.

Only one North American leather tannery makes vegetable-tanned horsehide in commercial quantities, Horween's Tannery. The bulk of their production is committed well in advance for shoe and boot makers and other specialty producers (like baseballs). What is available to the rest of the marketplace tends to be less desirable portions and smaller pieces than we might like to have access to. For the smaller production shop it can be a constant struggle to maintain sufficient horsehide inventory to meet demands.

Different portions of the hide (shoulders, backs, sides, butts, bellies) will vary in thickness and surface textures. Much of what becomes available to smaller shop buyers will be of the lesser demand portions.

Working with horsehide is both a pleasure and a cussword experience. Horsehide cuts very cleanly with good cutting tools, but forming operations are a real chore. Tooling or carving is not an option; the density of the leather does not lend itself to the deep impressions or molding of the impressions, so any attempts will appear only as a flattened surface pattern rather than the artistry of well carved or tooled cowhide. Once completed properly the horsehide holster tends to retain shape exceptionally well, resists abrasion, and wears like iron (so to speak) in use.

Difficult to get what we might like, expensive when found, and more time and effort in the production shop, all combine to drive the price upward.