dsf
Member
My 67 year old eyes still do 20/20 - LOVE that rear peep sight!
Lee Enfield Long Branch No. 4 Mk1*... but all LE's seem to be disappearing as a surplus rifle you can buy?
- Thread starter Jäger1
- Start date
CptCurl
Member
Does anybody know where I can find a good magazine for a #4 Mk1? Or perhaps some advice on how to make mine feed properly?
I have a really nice rifle, but it has feeding problems I would like to sort out.
Thanks,
Curly
I have a really nice rifle, but it has feeding problems I would like to sort out.
Thanks,
Curly
Exmilcop
Member
If you do an online search you may find a private sale or auction house with one. As to the feeding, if you can find a buddy with a good functioning Lee Enfield and mag, ask if you can check the orientation of the rounds in the mag and then carefully bend the feed lips of your mag to match. I'm not saying that'll fix it, but that's one possibility. Also check the king screw and make sure it has both the proper collar and lock washer. I love the No.4's and grew up with 'em. I nailed my first deer with one at about 150 yds. When I grew up, the ammo was cheap as dirt, about 20-25 cents per round. Most of it was corrosive but we always looked for the DI or DIZ stuff since it was reloadable and boxer primed. I could go on and on about "the good ol' days". I bought several of the Long Branch No.4's that were new in the grease when they hit the market. The story was they were found in a NATO warehouse in Belgium and all 1950 dated, black walnut stocked, nicely blued, and made for the Korean conflict. Cleaning the cosmoline out of them was a PITA, but OMG, what lovely rifles! I've divested myself of all my collectibles and figured they should go to a next generation of firearms enthusiasts and I now have only what I use for hunting and plinking. I do have a tiny bit of regret for not hanging on to my No.4 and my FN C1A1, but I've always hated the dog-in-the-manger fudds and didn't want to turn in to one of those. There's new afoot that the old arsenal lands in Long Branch are going to be developed but I've heard that the environmental assessments are problematic. Nothing is forever except death and taxes.
I very recently took a gamble on one of the RTI Ethiopian imports. I know people have mixed opinions about RTI, but my limited experience with them is 200% great.
With the exception of one field-expedient front sling swivel repair (hung on by wire), this rifle is completely intact. The wood is filthy and there were a few superficial cracks, it was absolutely caked in cosmoline and dirt and has some patina to it, and the bore is dark with well-defined lands…but it was $274 shipped to my FFL and it’s a complete 1917 No.1 Mk 3*, mechanically functional, but still with good finish under the wood line and honestly looking pretty good for a century of world wars and Ethiopian long-term storage. Even has the original sight ladder, which I honestly thought would be damaged by the stack of time.
For me, milsurps are shooters…the point is to appreciate what those who carried them went through, and in my collection (weirdly enough WW1 focused), the patina and age and imperfections of my LE are actually perks because it’s not some showcase-perfect unissued masterpiece of preservation. A hard-earned patina and some residual Ethiopian greasy dust in the buttplate ain’t a bug, it’s a feature (and it might be a bug).
I foolishly traded away a 1915 vintage 1903 a few years ago; had spent a half-century or so as a rusty door hangar or closet stand. Had that same energy (and terrible, terrible stock sights). I’ll eventually pick up another one. My 1917 American Enfield is in as-issued configuration but has been reblued….no big deal at all, because it shoots lights-out and it’s got that dark, honest look and gravitas only time can grant. My M1 carbine was reblued enough to look almost plum-colored….no biggie; it’s a purple people puncher now. The 1900-vintage 1894 still hangs right up next to the Marlin 89 years newer. Point is, the age and vintage seem to look at the AR and the newer stuff in the safe like they’re saying “am I supposed to be impressed?”
If I could go back in time and for some reason was going to give myself irrelevant advice about milsurp collections, I’d tell me to worry not about the little things like collectors grades or crappy sights or patinas. Those old dudes sitting on barrels of unissued surplus never got a minutes worth of fun or enjoyment out of the things and now they’re gone- or worse, communicating that same bad vibe forward with snobbery and strangulating prices. I’d tell me to gamble on the RTI, keep the rusty POS, and don’t worry about someone’s opinion if I’m having fun!
**traded the 1903 and an AR for the M1 carbine, which nicely rounded out my American milsurp collection and is honestly in pretty nice condition.
With the exception of one field-expedient front sling swivel repair (hung on by wire), this rifle is completely intact. The wood is filthy and there were a few superficial cracks, it was absolutely caked in cosmoline and dirt and has some patina to it, and the bore is dark with well-defined lands…but it was $274 shipped to my FFL and it’s a complete 1917 No.1 Mk 3*, mechanically functional, but still with good finish under the wood line and honestly looking pretty good for a century of world wars and Ethiopian long-term storage. Even has the original sight ladder, which I honestly thought would be damaged by the stack of time.
For me, milsurps are shooters…the point is to appreciate what those who carried them went through, and in my collection (weirdly enough WW1 focused), the patina and age and imperfections of my LE are actually perks because it’s not some showcase-perfect unissued masterpiece of preservation. A hard-earned patina and some residual Ethiopian greasy dust in the buttplate ain’t a bug, it’s a feature (and it might be a bug).
I foolishly traded away a 1915 vintage 1903 a few years ago; had spent a half-century or so as a rusty door hangar or closet stand. Had that same energy (and terrible, terrible stock sights). I’ll eventually pick up another one. My 1917 American Enfield is in as-issued configuration but has been reblued….no big deal at all, because it shoots lights-out and it’s got that dark, honest look and gravitas only time can grant. My M1 carbine was reblued enough to look almost plum-colored….no biggie; it’s a purple people puncher now. The 1900-vintage 1894 still hangs right up next to the Marlin 89 years newer. Point is, the age and vintage seem to look at the AR and the newer stuff in the safe like they’re saying “am I supposed to be impressed?”
If I could go back in time and for some reason was going to give myself irrelevant advice about milsurp collections, I’d tell me to worry not about the little things like collectors grades or crappy sights or patinas. Those old dudes sitting on barrels of unissued surplus never got a minutes worth of fun or enjoyment out of the things and now they’re gone- or worse, communicating that same bad vibe forward with snobbery and strangulating prices. I’d tell me to gamble on the RTI, keep the rusty POS, and don’t worry about someone’s opinion if I’m having fun!
**traded the 1903 and an AR for the M1 carbine, which nicely rounded out my American milsurp collection and is honestly in pretty nice condition.
Attachments
Terry G
Member
All the C&R's we have bought at bargain basement prices have gone way up, just the way of things. I am really tired of hearing "What? I coulda bought that for $100.00!" (A Yugoslavian 59/66) My response is "Why didn't you?" My two, a MKIII* and a No.4.
I also recall when they were plentiful! My last one I bought was in 2000 or so, $99 with bayonet, a US property marked savage. Back when I was in college (late 80’s) my school was not far from Springfield sporters in Penn Run PA. Back then they had large barns lined with rifle racks 100+ yards long, and you could go through and pick a rifle off the rack. They had racks with various mausers enfields and more,and in my case I went with a Pattern 14. The rifle was $60 ( or about 1/2 my monthly military National guard drill check which had to sustain me through the month) and when I went to pay for it they handed you a box of ammo to go with it!
Typical #4 enfields are now about $500, and Pattern 14’s even more.
I bought a 1917 from CMP at the camp perry store in 2009 when I returned from Afghanistan when they were selling for around $300, and are now $750+.
I thinned the herd of a lot of my old surplus rifles, and wish I might have kept a few.
While in Afghanistan we were allowed to obtain and ship home anything we could reasonable prove was antique ( pre 1/1/1899 per federal law) and I have a Snider Lebel and a couple martini Henry’s from there I shoot regularly. For those that complain about the increasing cost and limited availability of 303 ammo, try shooting a 577 Snider or 577/450 Martini!
Typical #4 enfields are now about $500, and Pattern 14’s even more.
I bought a 1917 from CMP at the camp perry store in 2009 when I returned from Afghanistan when they were selling for around $300, and are now $750+.
I thinned the herd of a lot of my old surplus rifles, and wish I might have kept a few.
While in Afghanistan we were allowed to obtain and ship home anything we could reasonable prove was antique ( pre 1/1/1899 per federal law) and I have a Snider Lebel and a couple martini Henry’s from there I shoot regularly. For those that complain about the increasing cost and limited availability of 303 ammo, try shooting a 577 Snider or 577/450 Martini!
oldcorps76
Member
Bought a #1 Mk III Aussie Lithgow, excellent factory recondition, in the 1980's at the heyday of import mania, in full WW1 condition. $100. Bought a leather sling and Sold it becuz no surplus ammo. A mistake.
Glenn R. McMannly
Member
My unissued condition ‘55 Faz is my favorite:
Shoots like a dream and I’d trust it for more than just hunting.
Shoots like a dream and I’d trust it for more than just hunting.
I was never interested much in the #4 rifle or even the #5. I had a couple of each and resold them. Even a sniper #4 (no scope).
My interest was the SMLE MkI and No1MkIII(*).
I bought and sold a ton of those MkIII rifles especially in the 90's. They were easy to find at shows for $100 and under for a rell good one. A prime example was still under $150. They'd resell on the net for twice the price and more very easily.
The earlier MkI rifles from the 1904 to 1907 era were still not east to find but I did manage to get a few.
A kept a commercial BSA MkI* and still have it along with a 1906 BSA MkI*** military ,,one of the so called Irish Rifles.
Another sporterized MkI*** sits awaiting restoration.
The early Sparkbrook MkI that I sold for the large sum of $435 many yrs ago would have been one to keep. But the amt was a lot for even an early SMLE at the time.
A commercial BSA CLLE in great condition about rounds out what's left of the group.
My interest was the SMLE MkI and No1MkIII(*).
I bought and sold a ton of those MkIII rifles especially in the 90's. They were easy to find at shows for $100 and under for a rell good one. A prime example was still under $150. They'd resell on the net for twice the price and more very easily.
The earlier MkI rifles from the 1904 to 1907 era were still not east to find but I did manage to get a few.
A kept a commercial BSA MkI* and still have it along with a 1906 BSA MkI*** military ,,one of the so called Irish Rifles.
Another sporterized MkI*** sits awaiting restoration.
The early Sparkbrook MkI that I sold for the large sum of $435 many yrs ago would have been one to keep. But the amt was a lot for even an early SMLE at the time.
A commercial BSA CLLE in great condition about rounds out what's left of the group.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2009
- Messages
- 212
- Reaction score
- 203
When the UK took on the Germans over England, their fighter’s machine guns fired .303 cartridges. The pilot had to be close to the enemy aircraft!
TJm15.38
Member
I have four Lee Enfields, a 1918 No.1 Mk III* (refurbished WWII), a 1942 Lithgow No.1 Mk III*, No.4 Mk 1/2 (refurbished 1954) and an unfired No.4 Mk2 from 1955. I also have a good supply of Greek HXP surplus ammo and some German (MEN) from the 1980's. I reload the .303 British. I love the SMLE. Next to the M1 Garand, it was the best battle rifle in two World Wars.
That still persists. The vast majority of the "excess headspace problem" of the Lee Enfield rifles primarily exists between the ears of American reloader's heads (and with more than a few gun writers that were just as uninformed to fuel the flames).
In general, Lee Enfields are no harder to reload for than any other rifle/caliber, and unless you're doing it wrong, the brass you use in your rifle should last just as long as brass used in other centerfire rifles. And if you're only getting 2 or 3 reloads out of it, you're DEFINITELY doing it wrong.
That's all pretty correct. Distribucorp in Quebec was selling them 1950 Long Branches of 93L and 95L serial numbers for $150, in cosmoline with hang tags attached as long as you bought a crate (10). I had spending money after just getting home from a deployment and bought a crate. Scrupulously cleaned all of them, taking care not to destroy the hang tags, mounted a Leopold 20x scope in a no-drill amount, then five five shots warming and ten shots for group at 300 yards using Greek HXP ball.
The rifle shown in the original post of this thread is one of the two.
Kept the two best grouping ones with that Mk VII ball for myself, and made a huge profit by selling the rest for $175 each.... oh, if I could only have them back, hang tags and all.
I don't buy the story they were for the Korean War, however. It seems they were in Belgium, but I think it's more likely they were being held as war stores - Belgium was already manufacturing the FN49 and shortly about to begin manufacturing the FN FAL. I don't think they were desperate for Lee Enfields for Korea.
You might like this documentary on Long Branch:
In 1963 you could buy them mail-order for $14…. but a K98 was only $11 so that’s what I got for my 14th birthday. (I also preferred the “cock on opening” action.) Surplus Ammo was a nickel/round for either at a local AN-Surplus store in Houston. 8mm Lebel was 1-cent/rd. 30-wt motor oil for my’62 Falcon was 8-cents/qt. But a $100/wk was all an electrician’s helper could make if he also worked Sat for overtime.
“Alle ist relatif”, said the old Bavarian.
“Alle ist relatif”, said the old Bavarian.
Interesting video, Thanks for sharing. (I’m surprised that such promotional material was contemporaneously produced/shared about war-production.)
I have a Sten Mk II marked “Long Branch 1944” on the top-side of the magazine-well, but on the underside is stamped with 3-lines of Chinese Hanzi which were interpreted for me by a visitor to describe the weapon. It was apparently one of a large number intended to supply Chinese Nationalists, partisans and militia against Japanese invaders. According to Google:
“Sten guns were supplied to China during World War II, primarily by Canada through the Mutual Aid Board. Specifically, the Long Branch arsenal in Canada produced and supplied approximately 73,000 Sten MkII submachine guns to the Chinese Nationalist forces to aid their fight against Japan. These Stens were standard MkII pattern guns chambered for the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge.”
I have a Sten Mk II marked “Long Branch 1944” on the top-side of the magazine-well, but on the underside is stamped with 3-lines of Chinese Hanzi which were interpreted for me by a visitor to describe the weapon. It was apparently one of a large number intended to supply Chinese Nationalists, partisans and militia against Japanese invaders. According to Google:
“Sten guns were supplied to China during World War II, primarily by Canada through the Mutual Aid Board. Specifically, the Long Branch arsenal in Canada produced and supplied approximately 73,000 Sten MkII submachine guns to the Chinese Nationalist forces to aid their fight against Japan. These Stens were standard MkII pattern guns chambered for the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge.”
I'd have to watch again, but if my memory is correct the video was put together by a former worker after the war. The War Office probably shot various amounts of footage in the arsenals and aircraft manufacturers, and then censors and intelligence types decided which bits of footage could be put together to create bits of footage to feed the patriotism and the people at home.
The story of Small Arms Limited/Long Branch from it's beginnings until it closed/morphed into something else after manufacturing Canada's C1 and C2 FN FALs is in interesting one. I can't for the life of me remember if they manufactured Canada's version of the Sterling submachine gun that served Canada throughout the Cold War and up until 1985 when the Small Arms Replacement Project replaced all the infantry small arms except for the Inglis pistol.
Perhaps this is your Sten being assembled at Long Branch. Not all Canadians of Asian extraction found themselves interned in camps for the duration of the war while the government stole pretty much what they couldn't fit into a suitcase before leaving for those camps.
The FN P35 (again, if my memory is correct) was originally manufactured for the Chinese by Inglis (famous maker of Canadian washing machines and stoves) including the original tangent sight. It was only after that when it was produced in the form that armed the Canadians, Brits, etc for WWII and up until just a couple of years ago. Which is why the decal Inglis put on those High Powers has Chinese characters on it.
While Long Branch was stamping out those Sten guns, their barrel making division were also making barrels for their neighbors a few blocks away over at Inglis to put on their Bren guns (and possibly P35 pistols), where "Ronnie The Bren Gun Girl" was helping to sell war bonds years before the US was dragged for a second time from isolationism into WWII and copied Ronnie with "Rosie The Riveter".
Some Long Branch No. 4 rifles were mounted with six groove Bren gun barrels, such rifles are now expensive collector rifles to that group of owners. I kind of looked for one because the story is that those barrels produced slightly better grouping ability than the five groove barrels. Never found one in good enough condition and with a price tag I was willing to pay. Besides, the guys winning Service Rifle matches were doing just fine with five groove barrels.
Attachments
Last edited:
Wonderful Post!
(I think you mean my “STEN” not Sterling…but, Yes… good points.)
My family had neighbors (whose son was my fellow-Boy Scout patrol-member) who were CA-born American citizens …who were forced out of their Los Angeles home which was lost and occupied by looters and lost 800-yr old family antiques which were confiscated and/or stolen by looters after they were hauled away in Army busses. (They still were held responsible for the mortgage on that home however.)
Mrs. Sutow became a U.S. Army truck-driver in UT, while Dr. Sutow was interned at a separate camp to become the camp doctor AS WELL as the local village doctor. After the war they moved to Houston where as a cancer researcher at M.D. Anderson he developed a cure for a particular type of pediatric cancer.
My friend, their son, “Buzzy” (actually Edmund) in the 1980’s became a state-dept diplomat to Mexico, and their daughter an attorney for the Atty-Gen’s office. The entire Sutow family were modest, kindly, and generous. They quietly refused the measly $20K restitution offered by the gov’t in the 1980s.
Dr. Sutow succumbed to radiation-poisoning, likely acquired when he made annual missionary-trips to attend to atom-bomb victims and their descendants. Mrs. Sutow died in the late 90’s, still hosting exchange-students attending the U of H. (the Suzuki family were frequent visitors as well.)
I had a Type 94 pistol and holster, the flap of which contained Kanji she interpreted for me. I believe she “softened” the wording of the “prayer for protection” to the owner of that combo to protect my sensitivities, but she and the Dr. were loyal and true Americans.
We would do well to remember that our gov’t is still capable even in these times of such mistreatment of denigrated people…. citizens included.
The things you never knew - and were never mentioned in school during the 1960's and 70's. Maybe not even in the 1980's, when I was long gone from High School. There were former internment camps only about a hundred miles away and a trip over the Redding Creek Pass that I never knew existed. There's so many personal stories and histories that branch out of that. Dodson Mah's is one of them.
The first I heard of it was on a trip to see the bright lights of Vancouver for the first time with a guy who was a friend from work. We stayed with a friend of his, whose name I still remember although I never met him again, Dave Sakamoto. While driving somewhere around Richmond, he was pointing out all these rich lands next to YVR and casually saying "My Dad owned and farmed that before the war, and that block there as well", etc. We had just had lunch with his parents as my friend knew Dave's parents as well - they lived in a very humble small home in Steveston no bigger than the small home my Dad built and grew up in. Very nice welcoming people, pretty much like my own folks - definitely not well off from selling large tracts of property in the Lower Mainland.
When I said something like "What are you talking about?", that's when I first heard of the internment, seizure of homes and fishing boats, etc. I was having a hard time wrapping my head around that.
About ten years later, I was working drugs and paired up with a Customs Officer named Dodson Mah whose pictures are at the top, as we went through incoming cans at the terminals in Vancouver. Dodson was an irascible, chain smoking guy with an incredible sense of humor.
He casually told me one day after I told him about how I'd done with my Lee Enfield in a Service Rifle match,that a few years before he had heard noises downstairs in his home at night, got up and saw a couple of guys down in his living room. He promptly fired two shots at them out of his Lee Enfield, and was pissed off to see he'd missed and shot out his living room picture window. Followed by the neighbor's lights coming on, them coming to the door to ask if everyone was okay, and VPD showing up afterwards. When I asked him how he got out of that he broke into a sing-song broken English explanation and said the VPD finally gave up trying to understand this ugly old Asian, never even asking him where the gun was.
Dodson and his brother's parents were biracial, Chinese and Japanese; both of his parents had been born in Canada and then later married. Dodson said he spoke Cantonese, but only a little bit of Japanese. Being half Japanese was good enough to get them moved to one of the internment camps. Prior to that, probably being your usual 19 year old Alpha males, they had attempted to enlist after Canada went to war in 1939, but the Canadian military didn't want any Asians, didn't matter whether they saw them as Chinese or Japanese. So then the war with Japan started and now they weren't even free at home; they were in an internment camp.
Then the Brits and Canada came up with the idea of a Chinese Canadian commando group that they would parachute in back behind Japanese lines to link up with Dyak headhunters and other groups, and presumably convince them to kill Japanese instead of them on the spot. They named it Force 136, and probably 99% of Chinese Canadians have never heard of it, never mind the rest of Canada or people in other allied countries who eagerly snap up stories about the WWII SAS.
Dodson and his brother heard about this in the camp they were in, figured it was a way to get out of internment, and told the powers that be that they wanted to volunteer to join the unit. BC hadn't been treating Chinese Canadians very well at all up until this point, they were even more second class citizens than Japanese Canadians, so unsurprisingly, the military wasn't overrun with a stampede of volunteers. And so that's how Dodson and his brother got out of that Canadian Japanese internment camp, to serve as Chinese Canadian commandos that were told right from the start that they had a 50/50 chance of dying on their first mission parachuting behind enemy lines into the jungle. With the others who passed the grueling selection process, they went anyways...
The Story Of Canada's Force 136
A Rumble in the Jungle: The Secret Story of Force 136
YouTube: Force 136 - Chinese Canadian Heroes
There's an incredible war story right there. In Vancouver's Chinatown, there's a small little pavilion off to the side with several plaques in it, one of which lists the names of every Canadian Chinese who served with Force 136 that they were able to find. Some of those names figured prominently years later in Canadian politics. Including being the ones who got Chinese Canadians the right to vote in 1947 and the entirety of the rights of a Canadian citizen. Anyone who goes there will see Dodson's name among those on the plaque.
So this mild looking older guy, Dodson, was the first no-shyte commando from anywhere that I met. I knew a lot of WWII veterans growing up in the 1960's, some of whom were family, some were my teachers, and some were guys I worked with in in the mine, straight out of high school. But nobody that I had talked with like Dodson.
Once I got him started talking about it, he never stopped. About 99% were funny stories. When I told him I competed in DCRA with a Lee Enfield and invited him out to the range either with his Lee Enfield or to use mine, he jumped at the chance. It would be fun to say he was a pretty good shot. In reality, anything beyond 100 yards was probably safe. But he had been traveling to go hunting in the Okanagan (where they trained for Force 136) to hunt deer with a friend in the local orchards, so he was good enough to whack a deer, however he hunted.
I blame Dodson for my decision that jumping out of airplanes for a living was far more interesting than being a cop rooting around in shipments looking for drugs and bored half the time. When I passed selection and had my jump smock and maroon beret, the very next visit to the Lower Mainland, I went to visit Dodson, showed up at his front door dressed in that, and told him he was the one who caused me to do this.
Anyways, I eventually met a fair number of Japanese Canadians who were interned during the war. What mostly stands out is that not a single one showed a trace of anger or bitterness about what had been done to them. I don't think I would have forgotten or forgiven.
It doesn't end there. It was years before I learned the story of the Doukhobors when a neighbor told me she was taken from her parents with other Doukhobor kids when she was five back in the early 1950's and placed in a government dormitory and school surrounded by chain link fence to stop them from leaving and running home to their parents.
Yeah... they didn't teach me anything about that in school either, and perhaps not coincidentally, that was pretty much in the same place over in the Weird Kootenays where some of those Japanese Canadian internment camps were. Those kids look pretty much same as I did in 1960.
Last edited:
