Lee Factory Crimp/Cast Bullet Modification

[flat top]

Yes we have snow here...beautiful! Was out in the woods a bit yesterday...a winter wonderland! I love being in the woods when it snows!!!

Excellent on the chrono, and, shoot some groups while you are at it. Because of the nature of the heavy crimp you may have to adjust your loads a bit to get the results that we have experienced. I am assuming that you are starting this process with one load....for comparison purposes.....one set of cartidges for normal crimp and another set up with the heavy crimp? Keep in mind that the heavy crimp because of its increased pull factor and compression yield WILL raise pressures a bit, so make sure that your loads are not max!!! Anyway, once you shoot the heavy crimp and get some data, then work a load up with only the heavy crimp, and I think you will see that it will outperform the lesser crimp worked up in the same manner. That has been our experience.

SC; The RCBS 44 Mag dies have been on my loading bench long before there was a Lee die to buy............The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die came much later, as did most of Lee's other products.

I have tried to offer up a fix for a problem that "some" folks on this forum may have been experiencing. The solution works, for those that care to try it. As I said before, if the standard Lee seating die will apply this heavy crimp, thats great, but, dont demean the time and effort that I spent to solve a problem with the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, and try to help out others who may have been experiencing that particular problem. I belong to a few other forums that are made up of "serious" shooter/reloader/hunters, and I never see "anybody" ridiculed or made fun of or about, for thier ideas. A lot of folks on here invest time, effort and money to educate and inform the forum members, and I think its about time that everybody realizes that, and cuts some slack to those of us that put forth the effort.

 

[Skip Sackett]

You have to admit my new title did get a chuckle out of you, didn't it?

As for doing all of that testing, it's not necessary. I have extensive data already for several loads I use already. I will just compare the results I get from then new crimp ones to it.

At any rate, that's the plan for now!

 

[Bearcat74]

Are you seating and crimping at the same time or in seperate steps? How do you decide what is a good crimp and what is too much/little using the seater?

Thanks

 

[Skip Sackett]

Just need some warmer weather now!

Bear,
Yes, I am making my loads with a two step seating/crimping process. I like doing that on most of my rounds anyway. With this serious crimp, I wanted to make sure I was not going to have any "timing" issues.

I have ten rounds made up of a load that I loaded back in December of last year. The temperature is listed in my notes as being 30*F. Hopefully it will get up to that temperature within the next day or two!
I took FT's advice and lowered the charge weight by .5gr as the crimp has me just a "tad" concerned.
The load is one that I extrapolated from a 240gr JHP from the Hodgdon website. They show a maximum of 24.5gr of Lil' Gun with a Nosler 240gr bullet.
What I used last December for this load was 23.5gr with my home cast H&G #503 Elmer Keith bullet. The alloy I used was 18lbs of wheel weights with 2lbs of Linotype. The BHN runs between 15 to 18. It is sized to .431" and lubed with White Label Lube's BAC lube.

The primer is a Wolf Large Pistol Magnum primer and these have performed just as good as Winchester Large Pistol primers designed for standard or magnum rounds.

From the chronograph a year ago, I got these results:
Low: 1857fps
High: 1881fps
Avg: 1869fps
ES: 23.9fps
SD: 9.05fps

It is going to be tough to get better results than these and to be fair, I want it to warm up above the 12*F that it was today!

Hopefully by Thursday I will be able to get to the range to test them. We have a trip to take on Thursday night to Pennsylvania to have Christmas with our oldest son and family. If I don't get them done by then, it will have to wait until next week.

Here is a picture of the rounds:

 

[Scrapper]

Sounds like a good plan Smith Crazy. I'll be look'in to see how ya made out. Someday soon I'll be doing some using this crimp on my 45 colt and 454 casull. I'll be using it also for my 40 S&W,and when I find one for my 460 S&W.

When I do I'll post my results.

and when I find one for my 460 S&W

 

[Skip Sackett]

Scrapper,
Too much of a good thing is bad, friend! Whatever you do, don't use a crimp like this on any round that head spaces on the case mouth! You will be courting disaster!

There is a LFCD for the 40S&W and while I don't use it, I do see the need for one. When you use it though, it will not provide the type of crimp we are talking about here. If it would your case would go too far into the chamber and either not go off or get pinched in there when it did go off. The latter would not be a preferable experience!

Well, here is just another thing that is going to push off testing this crimp. I just got home from a service call. It seems some corrugation company couldn't wait until morning to get their machine running again! I'm going to bed!

 

[Scrapper]

Smith Crazy,
Thanks for the heads up on my safety. I do realize the difference in the crimp I would use in the different calibers as the especially critical 40 S&W, cause this kind of case "head spaces" off the case mouth. Also I do realize the potentially higher pressures involved with heavy crimps and this cartridge especially as just pressing the bullet a little deeper than specified will get you in trouble.

When I get ready to do this I'll most likely pop in here and consult you guys (show some pictures) while I feed my head with some books and ask around to see if any other people have done it. I may also call Lee.

Since I have proto-type experience I usually take things slow and work my way up. One thing I know I need is a chrono so I can check velocities.

Thanks again for your concern as it is Greatly Appreciated. Have a Great Day ! Friends

 

[David Sinko]

I bought one of these dies when I started loading .40 S&W. I discovered that rounds loaded with my RCBS dies did not have sufficient bullet pull and some of the bullets were being driven deeper into the case while chambering. This happened with jacketed and plated bullets and is not a good thing. I bought this Lee die thinking it would solve my problems, but no matter how much crimp I applied, the problem persisted. I then read about an EGW "U Die" which is an "U"ndersize sizing die which is in fact made by Lee but sold by EGW. EGW happens to be 20 minutes from where I live so I drove over and bought one. I now had brass that was sized properly, and all my problems disappeared. For some reason my RCBS sizing die was not doing a proper job of it and the Lee Factory Crimp Die turned out to be a waste of time and money. The .40 S&W can be a tricky cartridge to reload, but the U Die should solve most of the problems encountered when loading it.

Dave Sinko

 

[Skip Sackett]

Good deal!

Smith Crazy,
Thanks for the heads up on my safety. I do realize the difference in the crimp I would use in the different calibers as the especially critical 40 S&W, cause this kind of case "head spaces" off the case mouth. Also I do realize the potentially higher pressures involved with heavy crimps and this cartridge especially as just pressing the bullet a little deeper than specified will get you in trouble.

When I get ready to do this I'll most likely pop in here and consult you guys (show some pictures) while I feed my head with some books and ask around to see if any other people have done it. I may also call Lee.

Since I have proto-type experience I usually take things slow and work my way up. One thing I know I need is a chrono so I can check velocities.

Thanks again for your concern as it is Greatly Appreciated. Have a Great Day ! Friends

Awesome! The proto-type experience would really come in handy with this type of hobby! Cool!

You do need a chronograph dear friend. They are pretty reasonable now. I have a Shooting Chrony Beta. It came off the shelf of a local store. I like supporting them. If I had to do it over again, I'd get the one with the printer and remote readout. When you are on the range with other folks, it is a pain to keep telling them you are going downrange to check your chronograph.

David,
Glad to hear from your experiences. Bullet pull is the single most important thing to getting consistent loads. Crimp can aid but, it's bullet pull that provides most of the needed "drag", for lack of a better term. Many have polished the guts of their dies, the belling stem, so as not to open the case too much after sizing.
Most of my brass, for all of my loading, comes as once fired from a local range, even the 40S&W. I can tell you this, I get all kinds of headstamps from them and which brand of brass you use makes a difference. I have chosen to use Fiocchi for most of my 40S&W range fodder. It is thicker in most cases. Remington, not so much.
My current stock of 40S&W CCW ammo is made with Federal nickel plated and is very thick as well.

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[flat top]

Dave; I had the same problem with an RCBS sizer die in 45 ACP....that was "many" years ago. I sent the die back to RCBS and they sent me a new die, free. The new die did the trick. I also undersized my expander to create even a tighter bullet fit, and would always apply a very slight crimp on the bullet (not enough to create a headspace problem of course). This was way before the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die was available............In any auto loader a very minimal crimp is acceptable, but proper case tension is a must!!!

 

[Skip Sackett]

It wasn't that hard was it?

In any auto loader a very minimal crimp is acceptable, but proper case tension is a must!!!

See, FT, we do agree on something!

Have a great day!

 

[Kyler Hamann]

I just got my .500 S&W Lee Factory Crimp die after ordering it just over a month ago. Not a bad wait if anybody is wanting one.

I see some confusion that people don't think Lee will make one for you. It is custom order ($25 + $4 shipping) and you have to send them a dummy loaded round. But they will make them. The confusion comes that these are not the carbide size ring FC die common to other pistol calibers. This die is similar to the rifle FC dies, adding only a crimp and NOT resizing the loaded case.

 

[Skip Sackett]

You may have hit on the PERFECT solution!

I just got my .500 S&W Lee Factory Crimp die after ordering it just over a month ago. Not a bad wait is anybody is wanting one.

I see some confusion that people don't think Lee will make one for you. It is custom order ($25 + $4 shipping) and you have to send them a dummy loaded round. But they will make them. The confusion comes that these are not the carbide size ring FC die common to other pistol calibers. This die is similar to the rifle FC dies, adding only a crimp and NOT resizing the loaded case.

I know that Lee will make custom just about anything you want but I didn't know that they would make a FCD for you.

This may be the best of all worlds. The rifle type of die does use a rubber "spring" and works off the the shell plate. All it does is crimp and imagine if you could buy one for 38spl or 44Mag or......Now that would be cool. Then there would be no resizing of a lead round either!

Something to think about folks. How does that saying go, "More than one way to skin a cat." I always add; "Just as long as they get skint!"

 

[zeke]

Am another user of LFC dies, for pistol and rifle. For lighter loads and bullets in larger revolver cases, am using a heavy LFC. Crimping just heavy enough to leave a very short "ring" at leading edge of the brass case mouth , which is parallel to the bullet. This appears to helped considerably with efficient powder burning and accuracy with quicker burning powders, large cases used with lighter bullets. Do not own any standard lee pistol dies, so can't compare end results with LFC.

Like the Redding profile crimp, a revolver LFC can be adjusted from light to heavy, for a minimum amount of roll crimp to the crimp flat top has pictured (without buckling the case).

Rifle LFC dies can be adjusted from very light to what used to be called a "stab" crimp, which is similiar to the crimp found on some older military rounds. The heavier stab crimp also leaves a "ring" at forward edge of case mouth and parallel to the bullet. Again, without buckling the case. There are ledges left on the crimp, from the seperations in the crimping portion of the die. Using a heavy LFC for loads in 375 Win, 444 and 45-70. A light LFC is used for 25-20, 32-20 and 30-30, without buckling the thinner varieties of brass used.

Interesting discussion, because there are so many variables and no "absolutes"

 

[flat top]

Kyler; Thats great news! If I ever buy another Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die (for pistols), I will just special order it for my purposes! Another "good" option!!!Thanks!!!!

Zeke; Glad to hear of your success with the Lee Crimp. When I first modified my 444 Levergun, I did not have the Lee crimper for that cartridge. Although the barrel was lapped, and the accuracy was "acceptable", I though that the gun had a lot more to offer, and the only thing I could think of doing was getting the Lee Crimp Die and giving that a shot...it had worked so well for my 44 Mags. Anyway, I ordered it, gave it a shot with the heavy crimp, and oooeeee, did those groups ever tighten up!!!! I went from 1.250 (maximum group size) at 100 yards to .375 to .500 groups at 100 yards with different weight bullets and charges. Grant it, the gun is "fully" modified, with a lapped and floated barrel, etc, but, for a 16.5" barreled levergun to shoot those groups sizes consistantly was beyond what I had expected. I owe that to the heavy Lee crimp!.............By the way, and I cant find the picture or the info, but I read on another forum that one fella had his crimp at what looked to be about a 1/4" in lenght...it even cut into the first and maybe second driving band on the bullet! But he said, that as he continued cranking down on the die, that he just kept cranking until the accuracy was perfect, His final words on that note was something like..."I know it looks weird, but, it works for me!" I need to see if I can hunt that photo up.............If some folks on here think my heavy crimp is extreme, they have got to see this one!!!!

 

[Skip Sackett]

YMMV, mine did.

OK, after about 2000 miles in the last 6 days, I finally got a chance to run those 10 rounds to the range for testing.

Remember, I already had a load to compare this against that was shot almost 1 year to the day previously. It was 32*F today so I made a mad dash to the range and here were my results.
23gr Lil' Gun
H&g #503 250gr LSWC (Keith style)
Marlin 1894 44Mag Cowboy special with 20" octagon barrel.
Low: 1846fps
High: 1875fps
Avg: 1861fps
ES: 28fps
SD: 12.51fps

Now those numbers are nothing to sneeze at. I have shot much worse numbers and gotten wonderful accuracy from those loads.
One thing to remember as well was that I dropped the load by .5gr just in case the crimp would make drastic changes in pressure. With the tools I have available to me, extraction & primer condition, there were no signs of over pressure.

Accuracy wasn't exceptional BUT that may be because that it is 32*F and I was shooting outside in a snow storm!

The ES and SD went up just a tad and that may be able to be worked out if accuracy improved with increases of powder. I will work on that oh, say, about March or April. I may have to eat my words then but I saw nothing today that would lead me to believe that, but, open minded me is willing to wait for final judgment!

I will say that there was one thing of note regarding accuracy. It seemed to be some better. What has me wondering is this, is it possible that Lil' Gun might be the wrong powder for this bullet/caliber/rifle combination? I don't know the answer to that either at this time. Again, I promise, I will investigate this when the snow starts to leave us. I am going to make up 10 more rounds just like these to run over the chronograph to shoot then to see what ambient temperature does to this load.

By the way, I took some of the 23.5gr Lil' Gun, 240gr JSPHP with me to the range as well today. They were just like they were when I put them up at the beginning of this year. 9 point something for SD.

Another thing that was kind of bad/good, depending on perspective, a common house sparrow showed up at the 50 yard line. "Minute of sparrow" accuracy.

 

[flat top]

SC; I promised better accuracy, and "minute of sparrow" proves my point!!!! LOL!!!..............Did your groups with the .5 reduction in load show any vertical stringing?

 

[Skip Sackett]

SC; I promised better accuracy, and "minute of sparrow" proves my point!!!! LOL!!!..............Did your groups with the .5 reduction in load show any vertical stringing?

FT, my "minute of sparrow" came from my jacketed rounds, not the Keith ones. Maybe next time.

As for the vertical stringing, no, there was none of that. Just a group of about 2". This same rifle with a lighter, bigger, different shape, plain based bullet, can turn out 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

Like I said, I am willing to revisit this crimp and maybe work up a load with it and these bullets. It is just going to have to wait until warmer weather.

 

[flat top]

SC; Looking forward to your results. Keep us posted! I have my 405's for the 44 Mag, and darn, it is so cold here that shooting is out of the question. I need at least 30 degrees to get a good temperature spread for my working loads, and I dont think that is supposed to happen until next week...I hope. Have many other loads to test as well, and I am itching to get out there and get to work.

 

[warder]

hi guys i just bought a lee factory crimp die and loaded some .45 s&w rounds for schofield on pulling a bullet it sized it from ,452 to .447 ,the bullet dropped straight through the cylinder throats ,i havent fired any yet but i would bet they are pretty useless ,anyone with the same problem,I have emailed LEE to see what they say ,i think i have just wasted my money on this die .