Legal implications of lock removal ?

[Sportsterguy]

I would never would use a IL weapon for self defense. Dumb idea in the first place! I would have a pro GS disable the lock as I personally saw a 686 lock itself up at a match 3 years ago. Plenty of folks modify (action/trigger jobs) their weapons and have came out fine if they had to use them to defend their lives. If you feel its going to function as advertised leave it on. Chances of it locking up are slim but one time seeing it made a non believer out of me. If not sell it and buy a pre lock revolver and your problem is solved.

The IL is BS IMO and if you let a professional gunsmith remove the IL you should be good to go, BUT I'm not a blood sucking lawyer and a loosers family out to ruin your life when you were defending it in the first place!

The wife and I are empty nesters. If I need either my 1911, 66 or 870 riot in the middle of the night the last thing I would want is to fiddle around trying to unlock my weapons coming out of a deep sleep. Seconds could cost you your life! If you have a trigger lock try this with the weapon in its storage place and the key seperate. Run in place HARD for 50-60 seconds, then attempt to put the darn key in it. I leave em loaded with a round in the chamber /chambers and ready to bring into action. The 870 holds 8 rounds of 00 buck so leave the chamber empty and the safety off for the sound effect if needed. JMHO

 

[stuch77]

Don't own a IL revolver and never will. Dumb idea in the first place! I would have a pro GS disable the lock as I personally saw a 686 lock itself up at a match 3 years ago. Plenty of folks modify (action/trigger jobs) their weapons and have came out fine if they had to use them to defend their lives. If you feel its going to function as advertised leave it on. Chances of it locking up are slim but one time seeing it made a non believer out of me. If not sell it and buy a pre lock revolver and your problem is solved.

Hope your state has the Castle Doctrine or you live in a gun friendly area. Might help protect you from being sued on a good shoot. The IL is BS IMO and if you let a professional gunsmith remove the IL you should be good to go, BUT I'm not a blood sucking lawyer and a loosers family out to ruin your life when you were defending it in the first place!

The wife and I are empty nesters. If I need either my 1911, 66 or 870 riot in the middle of the night the last thing I would want is to fiddle around trying to unlock my weapons coming out of a deep sleep. Seconds could cost you your life! If you have a trigger lock try this with the weapon in its storage place and the key seperate. Run in place HARD for 50-60 seconds, then attempt to put the darn key in it. I leave em loaded with a round in the chamber /chambers and ready to bring into action. The 870 holds 8 rounds of 00 buck so leave the chamber empty and the safety off for the sound effect if needed. JMHO

good posting. you said everything i was going to. and i keep my guns loaded and one in the chamber also. tryed not leaving one in the chamer one time. its my nightstand weapon. one night my house alarm went off while i was sleeping reached for it thinking i had one in the chamber the whole time i was doing my search around the house turned out my dog set the motion sensor. went back to the bed room to put the gun away and did a check guess what no rd in ther chamber.

 

[Waidmann]

I too believe your civil exposure exceeds any criminal concern.

 

[jacquacks]

Well said.

I agree as well. Here in the "Republic of Arizona" we have been (so far) relatively free of the legal issues addressed.
If removal is the option chosen, the recommendation to have it done by a professional is probably advisable, although the procedure itself is simple to accomplish.

 

[1 old 0311]

Buy a used IL gun and remove the lock without putting in a plug " Hey. I bought it this way,"

 

[ltxi]

I respect Mas' opinion, as always, and that he left the lock in his personal carry M&P340 for potential legal reasons carries weight. I simply bought mine without the lock....if it hadn't been available in that configuration I wouldn't have purchased it. Fortunately, it was a want not a need so I had a choice.

 

[batmann]

Best advice I can give is to see a local lawyer, pay the fee and get his/her legal opinion.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I don't see why a storage security device should be built into a carry weapon, and I don't see why I wouldn't just lock up a weapon that I wasn't using if I was worried about children in the house getting at it. But as for the theft deterrent effectiveness of the ILS, they all use the same key, they can be defeated with a flat head screw driver pulling the side plate, and the design has its own issues with documented failure during use. It doesn't help matters that it's ugly as all get out either. As for legal ramification, you can either sue or be sued for just about anything these days. You are just as likely to be sued by a family member of someone who was shot while trying to rob you. So the ILS is at the very bottom of my worry over litigation possibilities.

 

[Imshootin]

I've got a couple of ILS guns that I have taken the locks out of and replaced with "the plug" that I've thought about selling. If I do, I will post pix of the firearms with the plug and state that the ILS will be reinstalled with the plug included so purchaser can do as he or she sees fit.
I, myself, won't sell the guns with the ILS removed by me. It takes me about 15 minutes to put the parts back in and that's the way I would sell them.
Parts included. Install them yourself if you wish.
I have no qualms about carrying and having to possibly use either of my firearms that have the lock removed. There's been enough online feedback including videos that show that lock failure has occurred and is a possibility. Not to mention S&W re-introducing several popular small carry guns without the locks due to this feedback.

 

[Sportsterguy]

good posting. you said everything i was going to. and i keep my guns loaded and one in the chamber also. tryed not leaving one in the chamer one time. its my nightstand weapon. one night my house alarm went off while i was sleeping reached for it thinking i had one in the chamber the whole time i was doing my search around the house turned out my dog set the motion sensor. went back to the bed room to put the gun away and did a check guess what no rd in ther chamber.

Sir, Glad for you that no one was actually in the house if you had to pull that trigger on your empty weapon. They have to get by my security system, 105 lb American Bulldog, bust the deadbolt I installed on the bedroom door and meet me with my 870 or 1911 and the wife (very recoil sensitive) with her 34 snub. Also keep our cells with us to dial 911. The local sheriff's dept. would probably take 10-40 minutes to get to our house, depending where they are in the county as we live in the sticks where I like it. Been through many a house clearing and it's a very dangerous operation, even in your own home and especially by yourself.

Stay safe and a Merry Christmas to you and everyone here on the forum!

Roger

 

[stuch77]

Sir, Glad for you that no one was actually in the house if you had to pull that trigger on your empty weapon. They have to get by my security system, 105 lb American Bulldog, bust the deadbolt I installed on the bedroom door and meet me with my 870 or 1911 and the wife (very recoil sensitive) with her 34 snub. Also keep our cells with us to dial 911. The local sheriff's dept. would probably take 10-40 minutes to get to our house, depending where they are in the county as we live in the sticks where I like it. Been through many a house clearing and it's a very dangerous operation, even in your own home and especially by yourself.

Stay safe and a Merry Christmas to you and everyone here on the forum!

Roger

same to you sir

 

[redhawk444]

I think the trouble would arise if one removed the lock, and a kid stole it and either shot himself of someone else, OR if he subsequently sold it and someone was killed or injured.

I know it sounds crazy, but in court, especially in a liability case, a jury could be convinced by a skillful lawyer that if the gun had the locking device remover that that shows a disregard for gun safety on the part of the gun owner.

In a liability case remember, the jury need not be unanimous in their verdict and the liability could be in the hundreds of thousands if not the millions. Few of us carry that much liability insurance on the house hold.

In the case of the gun being used in actual self defense, I don't think it would be an issue that could not be dealt with easily.

 

[Tyrod]

The attitude of Masad Ayoob while valid in the extreme are his own personal brand of paranoia. Mas usually only gets to the see the crappy side of the legal issues when he's called to testify in a civil or criminal action. The other 95% of the time when the system works as it's supposed to, MAS never get's to see. The obvious reason for lighened trigger pulls is a case of arthritis coming on. As far as the IL is concerned the 6 to 7% of folks reporting IL malfunctions would tend to indicate it's not ready for primetime. Saying you have the lock and just don't think about is just the ostrich effect. Murphy's law will get ya.

Then there's the old addage, I rather be tried by twelve than carried by 6.

 

[Wayne]

Thanks for all the great thoughts and opinions. Lots of good stuff here, and nobody got into a lock argument (yay !!!).

Interesting about MAS's using and keeping a IL on his J frame. His friend and fellow gun writer and also revolver gunsmith Grant Cunningham, who's book he was just promoting on his MAS blog, would never carry a gun with the IL, as he believes that IL failure is real. So just wonder if MAS believes it is a problem ?

 

[GregG]

I read somewhere a long time ago, I think it was an Ayoob book, that disabling a safety feature on a weapon can be used to demonstrate that you have little regard for safety.

 

[AKAOV1MAN]

Just for the record I have investigated a couple of hundred shootings by civilians and LEO. The issues, out side of some sort of criminal liability are, logically enough civil in nature. That is the shootee(or his family) suing the shooter in civil court for damages. Ayoob has some decent insight on this, and of course he takes the paranoid side. So do I. It only has to happen once to ruin your life-even if you prevail in the civil litigation.
As I see it there are only a couple of issues that put one at such a hazard:
1. Using handloads, I know, I know, it is your right. But you do not want to have to answer the paintiffs' attorney when he asks you if regular ammo is not deadly enough-even if you used wadcutters. Because there is no really good answer to that question.
2. Using a "hair trigger". Only makes a difference if you did not intend to shoot the BG.
3. As for the IL, the only liability that may accrue to you is if you(as has been mentioned above) leave the weapon unsecured and an unauthorized person has a ND and hurts someone. The mere fact that one intentionally uses the gun pretty much negates the fact that that person deactivated a safety device, in fact one would pretty much have to deactivate ALL of the weapons safety devices to shoot someone. The matter of transferring the weapon with a deactivated safety device to someone else is another barrel of fish entirely. I would NEVER sell, give away, or otherwise let anyone else have possession of one of my guns that had any safety device altered. Because the weapon is now out of my control and God only knows who will get their hands on and do what with it. And if they have a ND, the legal issue may revert back to you as the person who "made the gun more dangerous". I do not like magazine disconnects, and usually deactivate them on any weapon that I use for social purposes. But I would NEVER sell or transfer the weapon in that condition, or even allow someone else-anyone else-to use it. It could come back to bite me.
There is a lot of scary stuff loitering around the internet and in many publications. If you think about it clearly, you will never run afoul of the law. But always remember there are tens of thousands of unemployed lawyers out there(that by the way is why we have all the looney tune litigations-they are looking for a way to make a living), and they will absolutely pillory you in a second if they think there is a buck in for them. They do not care if they ruin your life, or if you were legally and morally in the right. A buck is a buck to all too many of these bottom feeders.
Disclaimer: I am a graduate of an ABA approved law shcool, and have served as a military attorney and as an adminsitrative law judge. But I am primarily a law enforcement and regular (bellicose type) military person by vocation, and a teacher and professional mariner by avocation. And I have a profound distaste for our legal system, particularly as it applies to regular middle class citizens.

 

[Kavinsky]

People have been modifying guns since guns were invented. I have disabled the IL's on several guns, Rugers and others and I have disabled magazine safeties on several. I don't worry about it.

People used to pin the grip safeties on 1911's all the time. Guns were made for hundreds of years with no locks. Think of it as putting the guns back in their original condition. You changed the sights? Better to kill your victims with. Made the action smoother? Changed the grips? Yeah so you could kill more proficiently. There are a million things you could do to a gun that some jerk wad can say you did to improve your proficiency at killing.

The lawyers are going to do what they do.

I have not removed the IL from my S&W revolvers I have bought that have them. But if the lock was on one I carried for self defense, I wouldn't hesitate to remove it. My revolvers are range guns so I don't worry about the lock.

yeah you cant live in fear like these ***holes want you to.

so I'd say do it just as long as its not something like lightening a DA of a revolver to the weight of a match 1911 trigger or something along the lines of that although that lock should have never been implemented by smith and wesson in the first place

and I have handled a revolver just like that by the way.

although personally I wouldnt sell it in that condition as it leaves you open to liability nor would I really buy one or use one in self defense with that in it in the first place as the less you can use against you the better, although I aint going to frown away from carrying a .40 or a .45 just because some pig low life lawyer could use it against me.

so other than that no worries and as my father always says when it comes to this kinda **** in Massachusetts and probably would say with that .40 call killing caliber BS ****'em!

and I'd ask my lawyer to ask for a new jurry if they are that stupid as they obviously are idiots if they actually believed that **** that lawyer was spewing.

 

[oldman45]

The very first case in my commercial law class in the 1970's, involved an individual who tried using a lawn mower to trim his hedges. He lost several fingers in the process. He sued the manufacturer of the lawn mower, and the finding was upheld on appeal.

Never underestimate a jury's sympathy.

Actually this case is brought up from time to time in court. It was the reason behind warning labels being placed on yard tools. Since then, injuries have been more or less limited to product liabilty for defective products. As I remember, the case originated in Ohio. The man got millions out of it.

As I see it, having been in a few hundred court cases, removing the lock is no different from changing tire sizes on your pickup truck. Changing tire size will change the braking, cornering, center of gravity and handling. If you have an accident, that might be used against you and it might not. Only a really good investigator will look for switched tires. I was in a case in DeSoto Parish, LA where the State Police failed to weigh the truck or measure the crush. I did both and found the tires were changed.

Changing the lock on a gun is no different. The prosecution will likely not be smart enough to even know it had a lock. A civil suit plaintiff atty will not likely have the gun to examine.

However to CYA in the event of selling the gun, I suggest getting a written agreement signed saying whomever bought the gun did so As Is, Where is and with the understanding the gun is in working condition and the seller assumes no reponsibility for death or injury arising from the use of the gun. I sell very few guns but I get a signed Bill of Sale with each sale.

 

[photoman]

I read somewhere a long time ago, I think it was an Ayoob book, that disabling a safety feature on a weapon can be used to demonstrate that you have little regard for safety.

The internal lock is not a safety.

Regarding Massad Ayoob: I don't think he's paranoid. He is a public figure and has to moderate his opinion. I'm sure he realizes that the probability of every using the gun in a manner that would lead to a trial in the first place is extremely unlikely. Speaking of probability, the probability of having one lock up at the "big" moment is, well, you've probably got a better chance of winning the lottery. I suspect that's why he doesn't bother removing the lock on his personal guns.

 

[cwo4uscgret]

Start with the lawyers....first

I've read about over zealous prosecutors who have turned the tables on the victim of a crime who used deadly force to protect him and his family because of modifications to a factory firearm...

Nothing would surprise me in today's legal system. The media alone has a tendency to turn the criminal into a victim and blame the real victim by labeling the victim as a vicious killer, with exploding expanding bullets...etc. killing an innocent child who crashed through their front door, guns blazing, intent on murder, robbery, and mayhem.

I'm not mechanically inclined enough to safely modify an integral locking system on a gun; I don't like them either; so I try to avoid buying any. I have one S&W, a 325PD, that has an ILS and I avoid locking the gun.

If you use a firearm for home defense; or if you carry a firearm as part of your job I recommend having a good attorney, with firearms experience in your jurisdiction, and having a liability insurance policy as well.

Just remember this little tidbit that has been pretty much beaten into me over the years: I recognized a serious threat to my (or my co-worker's, or my family's life) life; being in mortal fear of my life, I used the minimum amount of force necessary to stop that threat.

Hey, yes, you may have just killed someone but you identified it as a threat, used your training and knowledge to stop the threat, and gone home safe at the end of the day...