Legal issues to consider regarding gun mod's for carry weapons.

[one eye joe]

1. I'm not a cop.
2. I don't have qualified immunity.
3. I don't have a union backing me up.
4. I don't have a bottomless pit of taxpayer money to pay settlements and judgments.

I simply can't afford to substitute a 20lb. trigger and a magazine safety for accuracy and good judgment.

Here in Ohio, if somebody kicks in my door at 3:00am or tries to carjack me on the way from home, nobody's going to worry about whether I had a 3.5lb. Ghost connector in my Glock 19 (which I do). They're going to care if I adhered to Ohio deadly force law.

1. Was I in reasonable and immediate fear of life and limb?
2. If I wasn't in home or vehicle, did I ATTEMPT to RETREAT (ONLY if possible in PERFECT SAFETY)?
3. Did I cease the use of deadly force when the threat was neutralized?

I am VASTLY more concerned that I might miss and shoot the wrong person because of some garbage "NY trigger" than I'll EVER be that I got prosecuted because I shot somebody with a Glock with a 3.5lb. connector, who kicked in my door and tried to rob or murder me.

ALONG WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF FORUM MEMBERS, I AGREE. OF COURSE, I DOUBT IF ANY OF US WILL BE ON THE JURY…..

 

[moosedog]

It's either a justified shooting or not.
Some slip and fall type lawyer can always try to make an issue out of everything from your NRA membership to your ammo choice.

 

[Massad Ayoob]

bhayles, you asked "What controls: Manufacturer spec or user modification?"

Basically, it's manufacturer spec for a "duty weapon." With double action revolvers, it has long been understood that cocking the hammer when holding someone at gunpoint is a no-no, and that of course became an issue in the Magliato trial. Both the false allegation of the cocked hammer and the fact that two coils had been removed from the trigger return spring on Alvarez' revolver were issues in his case. Using a very light trigger target pistol for high-stress use could certainly be construable as negligence. When a police department orders Glock 34/35 Practical-Tactical models, Glock ships them with 5.5 pound connectors instead of the usual 4.5 of those models, as a matter of policy. It's why long ago, LAPD modified its target grade service revolvers, 4" and 6" K-38 series, to double action only for duty use.

Essentially, the negligence element the other side is trying to establish is "too light for high stress self-defense situations." Modifying the gun is merely one avenue toward falling into that trap.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Muss Muggins, far from hunting down his "victim," Magliato was on his way to a police station to report the previous attack on him when he spotted the perps' car, asked his companion to call the police, and stood on the sidewalk waiting for the police to show up. That's where he was when he was attacked by the club-wielding "victim."

 

[Rastoff]

There is an aspect to this discussion that has gotten lost and that is the crux of the OP. Put in simple terms, will a person be put in prison because they used a modified gun for self-defense?

I believe I was the first to ask if anyone can show us a case where that happened. So far, there have been a couple of cases presented where a modified gun was used and was significant to the trial. However, in none of those cases was the shooter put in prison. In one the sentence was suspended and in the other the shooting was ruled justified. Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

So the question remains, is there a case where a modified gun, regardless of modification, was significant in sending someone to prison for what otherwise would have been a justified self-defense shooting?

 

[Muss Muggins]

Muss Muggins, far from hunting down his "victim," Magliato was on his way to a police station to report the previous attack on him when he spotted the perps' car, asked his companion to call the police, and stood on the sidewalk waiting for the police to show up. That's where he was when he was attacked by the club-wielding "victim."

" . . . Magliato pulled over, told his companion to call 911, and approached the vehicle (emphasis added) in hopes of waving down the first patrol car he saw . . . "

The Gun Zone - The Magliato Case

The phrase "stood on the sidewalk" doesn't appear in the above article.

Which is it?

 

[Massad Ayoob]

It's both.

 

[Massad Ayoob]

There is an aspect to this discussion that has gotten lost and that is the crux of the OP. Put in simple terms, will a person be put in prison because they used a modified gun for self-defense?

I believe I was the first to ask if anyone can show us a case where that happened. So far, there have been a couple of cases presented where a modified gun was used and was significant to the trial. However, in none of those cases was the shooter put in prison. In one the sentence was suspended and in the other the shooting was ruled justified. Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

So the question remains, is there a case where a modified gun, regardless of modification, was significant in sending someone to prison for what otherwise would have been a justified self-defense shooting?

Magliato spent several years in prison. Alvarez spent fourteen months with the Sword of Damocles hanging over his head. Implying that because he was ultimately acquitted means his ordeal didn't count is a little like telling a cancer survivor, "Well, you're still alive, so cancer is nothing to worry about."

 

[Muss Muggins]

It's both.

Wow. I don't buy that. It can't be both. Did he do one, then the other? According to your Gun Zone article, when he approached, he was attacked. Was he attacked just waiting on the sidewalk? Or when he approached? Or was he attacked twice? There's a huge tactical and factual difference between waiting on a sidewalk and approaching a vehicle. Which one did he do?

 

[bhayles]

So the question remains, is there a case where a modified gun, regardless of modification, was significant in sending someone to prison for what otherwise would have been a justified self-defense shooting?

A qualified...sorta.

IF a person is sent to prison for what is seemingly a justified shooting, and IF the prosecutor's decision to prosecute was based, at least in part, on the modification to the trigger, then yes, a modification did play a part.

What I can't understand about this conversation is, "Why take the chance?" Given the huge adrenelin dump that will occur in a life threatening situation, a 50 lb trigger pull would probably not be noticeable, and 99.9% of self-defense shootings will occur at such close range that the improved accuracy is completely unnecessary. Barring mass civil unrest if you shoot someone at a distance the trigger pull made an accuracy difference that mattered its not self defense...its wanting to shoot someone.

For some, shooting a pistol is sport AND self defense and such a person might not be able to afford both a good self defense pistol AND a target pistol. In that one, single example I MIGHT be able to see a light trigger on a self defense weapon.

For me, sport shooting is either hunting or range plinking with my AR. My G22 is a tool...a tool for one purpose, to defend myself or family. No light trigger needed for it to do its job.

 

[southcoast]

A qualified...sorta.

IF a person is sent to prison for what is seemingly a justified shooting, and IF the prosecutor's decision to prosecute was based, at least in part, on the modification to the trigger, then yems, a modification did play a part.

What I can't understand about this conversation is, "Why take the chance?" Given the huge adrenelin dump that will occur in a life threatening situation, a 50 lb trigger pull would probably not be noticeable, and 99.9% of self-defense shootings will occur at such close range that the improved accuracy is completely unnecessary. Carrying mass civil unrest if you shoot someone at a distance the trigger pull made an accuracy difference that mattered its not self defense...its wanting to shoot someone.

For some, shooting a pistol is sport AND self defense and such a person might not be able to afford both a good self defense pistol AND a target pistol. In that one, single example I MIGHT be able to see a light trigger on a self defense weapon.

For me, sport shooting is either hunting or range plinking. My G22 is a tool...a tool for one purpose, to defend myself or family. No light trigger needed for it to do its job.

Your stance was clarified in an earlier post, which I had overlooked. Thus my reply was inappropriate. I apologize and will move on.

 

[southcoast]

Magliato spent several years in prison. Alvarez spent fourteen months with the Sword of Damocles hanging over his head. Implying that because he was ultimately acquitted means his ordeal didn't count is a little like telling a cancer survivor, "Well, you're still alive, so cancer is nothing to worry about."

Magliato claimed his shooting was an accident. This was not a justified self defense claim where he intentionally fired his weapon.

 

[bhayles]

If "why take the chance" is the ultimate question, then why bother carrying a concealed weapon for self defense? Leave your weapon at home and hope the police or other authorities can always be there to protect you if you are concerned about every illogical hypothetical that has never come to fruition.

Some things just aren't worth answering.

 

[shouldazagged]

It appears this thread is teetering on the edge of becoming your basic, garden-variety urine fest. I think I've read quite enough.

Carry on.

 

[Massad Ayoob]

" . . . Magliato pulled over, told his companion to call 911, and approached the vehicle (emphasis added) in hopes of waving down the first patrol car he saw . . . "

The Gun Zone - The Magliato Case

The phrase "stood on the sidewalk" doesn't appear in the above article.

Which is it?

Magliato stood on the sidewalk near the unoccupied vehicle, hoping to wave down the first NYPD personnel he saw. The surviving one of the two occupants testified that he and his soon-to-die buddy were walking the streets looking to score some heroin when they returned, saw Magliato, and things went down.

You really haven't researched this case at all, have you?

 

[Massad Ayoob]

Magliato claimed his shooting was an accident. This was not a justified self defense claim where he intentionally fired his weapon.

The soon-to-be-deceased Anthony Gianni, walking around the streets of New York with his club in plain sight, spotted Magliato and moved toward him aggressively with drawn weapon.

Magliato, licensed to carry, drew his revolver and shouted a warning. Gianni raised the club, screamed his last words -- "I've been looking for you, (expletive deleted)," and lunged toward him. It was at that point when the Detective Special unintentionally discharged.

Are you saying his drawing of the gun and taking the assailant at gunpoint was NOT a legitimate citizen use of a deadly weapon?

Seriously?

 

[Massad Ayoob]

It appears this thread is teetering on the edge of becoming your basic, garden-variety urine fest. I think I've read quite enough.

Carry on.

Sir, you have absolutely NAILED it.

The thread began with an original poster providing a link in which lawyers spoke of cases they had done where too-light trigger pulls had become an issue. Soon, ignoring that totally, there were folks saying there was no such thing.

In these few pages, we've had someone saying armed citizen Magliato was a cop, saying a cop who was thrown to the wolves somehow had special privileges (funny that he went to trial, then...), and more input from people obviously unfamiliar with both cases. Amidst that was a link to a hatchet job site created by a cyberstalking troll, posted piously by someone saying he wasn't slinging mud. (The term "disingenuous at best" comes to mind.)

Urination fest? Yup. Since it's after 11 PM where I am, I'm gonna make one more Internet stop and go to bed. When I get up in the morning, I'll get the coffee ready first thing.

I have a feeling my bladder will need a reload before I return...

 

[southcoast]

The soon-to-be-deceased Anthony Gianni, walking around the streets of New York with his club in plain sight, spotted Magliato and moved toward him aggressively with drawn weapon.

Magliato, licensed to carry, drew his revolver and shouted a warning. Gianni raised the club, screamed his last words -- "I've been looking for you, (expletive deleted)," and lunged toward him. It was at that point when the Detective Special unintentionally discharged.

Are you saying his drawing of the gun and taking the assailant at gunpoint was NOT a legitimate citizen use of a deadly weapon?

Seriously?

Are you saying Magliato testified the shooting was intentional, or will you concede he claimed the shooting was an accident? He is the one who actually pulled the trigger and claimed as much. Based on his version as presented in court via sworn testimony, the jury decided this was not a justified shooting. If he genuinely believed the shooting was justified, and intentionally fired under this belief, then his lying in court about what actually happened is his problem and not some alleged weapon modification.

 

[southcoast]

Sir, you have absolutely NAILED it.

The thread began with an original poster providing a link in which lawyers spoke of cases they had done where too-light trigger pulls had become an issue. Soon, ignoring that totally, there were folks saying there was no such thing.

In these few pages, we've had someone saying armed citizen Magliato was a cop, saying a cop who was thrown to the wolves somehow had special privileges (funny that he went to trial, then...), and more input from people obviously unfamiliar with both cases. Amidst that was a link to a hatchet job site created by a cyberstalking troll, posted piously by someone saying he wasn't slinging mud. (The term "disingenuous at best" comes to mind.)

Urination fest? Yup. Since it's after 11 PM where I am, I'm gonna make one more Internet stop and go to bed. When I get up in the morning, I'll get the coffee ready first thing.

I have a feeling my bladder will need a reload before I return...

No one has provided an actual verifiable citation to single case meeting all the criteria the OP's question. General anectdotal references are insufficient as evidence, as anyone familiar with legal proceedings knows. You have spoken in general terms around the issue as well, but cannot cite one single case meeting all criteria. A ccw holder intentionally firing a weapon with a modified trigger in a justified self defense situation and serving time, etc. because this became a relevant legal issue in the case. A very simple proposition, but no actual takers.

In addition to my offer of a brick of 22lr to the poster, I will also match the cost of a premium brick as a donation to the forum, for a spot on actual court case citation.

 

[hoc9sw]

There is an aspect to this discussion that has gotten lost and that is the crux of the OP. Put in simple terms, will a person be put in prison because they used a modified gun for self-defense?

I did mention I had seen cases where, although not part of the final judgement, stupidity of the lawyers / jury had impact. You asked for cases, but surmised that I might not be able to provide that for legal reasons. You were correct.

It was many years ago, but I rode with the local departments, and did preliminary screening for the judicial validity of a case. That means - if you were a kid who fessed up, let us call your dad to come get you and your car (with all the grief we would apply in the process), and you were not in my "book" of warnings, you did not go to jail for DUI. If you were in my book, driving a souped up roadster, or stopped at 70 in a 30 zone, I had you bound over to county court on the spot.

Would your case have been worsened by a tricked-out gun? Oh yes. Did kids who held up gas stations suffer worse for a .45 than they would have for a .22? YES.

Did I ever see a person go to prison BECAUSE of a modified trigger? NO. Did I ever see a person go to prison (for a longer term than was expected) because of a non-standard weapon? YES.

Did I see a self defense case go badly because of the weapon / situation? YES

And that is all I can say.

 

[Rastoff]

Thanks for the clarification hoc9sw.

 

[CaptRon956]

I really didnt think this subject would go on like this, I think it has over extended its stay.. please forgive my noobness guys...

 

[ClayCow]

No one has provided an actual verifiable citation to single case meeting all the criteria the OP's question. General anectdotal references are insufficient as evidence, as anyone familiar with legal proceedings knows. You have spoken in general terms around the issue as well, but cannot cite one single case meeting all criteria. A ccw holder intentionally firing a weapon with a modified trigger in a justified self defense situation and serving time, etc. because this became a relevant legal issue in the case. A very simple proposition, but no actual takers.

In addition to my offer of a brick of 22lr to the poster, I will also match the cost of a premium brick as a donation to the forum, for a spot on actual court case citation.

So...if i go to jail for using my modified gun and it is used against me in court. This forum gets a brick of .22lr? Not worth the risk to me, dont see where i come out ahead : )

However, reading through these posts, i think i will go ahead and cerakote my frames in OD Green and Coyote Brown.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Magliato stood on the sidewalk near the unoccupied vehicle, hoping to wave down the first NYPD personnel he saw. The surviving one of the two occupants testified that he and his soon-to-die buddy were walking the streets looking to score some heroin when they returned, saw Magliato, and things went down.

You really haven't researched this case at all, have you?

Other than your Gun Zone blogs and the comments here, no. Since there's now a third version of the case circulating, I'm out.

Stay Safe.

 

[bhayles]

...It was many years ago, but I rode with the local departments, and did preliminary screening for the judicial validity of a case.

Would your case have been worsened by a tricked-out gun? Oh yes. Did kids who held up gas stations suffer worse for a .45 than they would have for a .22? YES.

Did I ever see a person go to prison BECAUSE of a modified trigger? NO. Did I ever see a person go to prison (for a longer term than was expected) because of a non-standard weapon? YES.

Did I see a self defense case go badly because of the weapon / situation? YES

And that is all I can say.

All emphasis added by me.

This is precisely the point I'm making. Once in front of a jury a light trigger will probably make little difference in the outcome of a case if the shoot was really justified.

Of course, getting in front of a jury involves indictments, grand juries, anti-gun prosecutors and judges (maybe), bail...or sitting in jail for a year waiting for trial if bail can't be raised, and the potential loss of family, home, job, etc due to all of the ****.

All so I can have a trigger with 1 or 1.5 lbs lighter trigger pull that might just be what sets a district attorney off on an ant-gun prosecution?

No thanks. I'm an old fart but I think I can deal with a slightly heavier trigger in a self defense situation.

 

[k20350]

The ONLY time during a 30 year law enforcement career that I am personally aware of anything close to a gun mod being brought up in a shooting was by the SHOOTER who was trying to mitigate intent in a bad shooting. The guy shot someone he was not justified in shooting and then tried to call it an accident as opposed to pre-meditated murder by saying: "The gun just went off because the trigger was faulty."

A good shooting is a good shooting. I am not personally aware of any case where a person who shot another was either charged more seriously or charged at all due to a gun mod. Criminal-law speaking, a "good" shooting is a good shooting if the intent and justification are in the right places.

I'd be more afraid of "personalized" guns than I would "modified". For example grips with a death's head or even your initials or military-related themes. Once a prosecutor decides they can prove you guilty of a crime and a judge determines there is probable cause to charge you with a crime after a shooting, they will try to use EVERYTHING they can against you. A lighter trigger pull is not going to be a factor in charging you unless you bring it up as a defense. They MAY try to use it against you at trial, depending on the circumstances. "This gun nut loves his guns so much he even paid $400.00 for fancy animal bone grips! The walnut grips it came with weren't good enough because his gun had to be FANCY to show off at BBQ's!"

How about getting in "trouble" for FAILING to make a gun mod:

"So you decided to carry a factory Glock like the cops carry? Really? Like the cops carry? Did you modify it so that the trigger pull is heavier than factory like the cops did so it's safer? Or did you keep the factory hair trigger?"

This. A fellow i used to drive truck for was involved in a fatal truck accident. The accident was in no way his fault but someone died in the wreck. So the obligatory civil suit was filed against him by the persons family. He had a very nice all chromed out KW truck. But on the back of the sleeper he had "Load it like a boxcar, drive it like a NASCAR". The attorneys for the family turned him into a reckless monster with that statement in court. He ended up winning the case but it cost him everything. His business, home, he was basically penniless when the dust settled years later. So leave the punisher grips, flaming skull holsters, notched grips home. Just FYI

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

No one has provided an actual verifiable citation to single case meeting all the criteria the OP's question. General anectdotal references are insufficient as evidence, as anyone familiar with legal proceedings knows. You have spoken in general terms around the issue as well, but cannot cite one single case meeting all criteria. A ccw holder intentionally firing a weapon with a modified trigger in a justified self defense situation and serving time, etc. because this became a relevant legal issue in the case. A very simple proposition, but no actual takers.

This forum is not a courtroom, and you sure ain't no judge here.

That folks like Mas Ayoob and Hoc9sw are gracious enough to share their professional experiences in these matters is appreciated. Their postings are a welcome alternative to the Net Ninja Google experts that so often litter such discussions.