Legal Shipping issues

[zoisrus]

Question for everybody:
I bought a handgun on GB. The seller sent it to my FFL by USPS! They are having a fit. The statute says it's illegal. What happens now. Does the gun get confiscated? Does the seller get charged?

Thanks, Chris

 

[KdF]

No, if the seller has a FFL on file at Gun Broker, and the receiver has a FFL on file, then it's legal. If the seller does NOT have a FFL on file, then it's against postal regulations.

Whom are "They" who are having a fit? What statute are they citing as Illegal? If the seller did not use a FFL to ship it, then he's the one in trouble, not you. S&W sent Me my 29-3 back Fed Ex. But I have seen other pieces come in to me from my Gun Shop USPS.

 

[zoisrus]

KdF, "they" are the people at my gun shop.

UPDATE: The seller insists that she sent the gun by UPS. Now I'm beginning to think that the problem is on this end. After many smooth transactions, this has me wigged out. It's no small amount of money involved.

Chris

 

[zonker5]

I don't see what the problem is. The gun is at your FFL, how it got there is not really a big deal. What would they do, send it back and have it re-sent by UPS?

Do your paperwork, pay the fee and take it home.

 

[KdF]

I would suggest to ask them to see the box it came in. If they can't produce it, then it's water under the bridge. It's a after the Fact moment, and I don't really see the problem now as zonker5 said.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Maybe you need a different receiving FFL.

 

[GBertolet]

The UPS is now occasionally using a procedure where they transfer to the local post office for final delivery. I think the shipper has to agree to this in exchange for a lower shipping rate. I had packages from Midway come this way. If your firearm was not declared when shipped, this is what may have happened to you.

 

[KdF]

So what happened on this?

 

[Alpo]

The UPS is now occasionally using a procedure where they transfer to the local post office for final delivery. I think the shipper has to agree to this in exchange for a lower shipping rate. I had packages from Midway come this way. If your firearm was not declared when shipped, this is what may have happened to you.

I just had that happen with a Christmas present. It went FedEx, from Vermont, until it got to Atlanta, where it was handed off to the Post Office for delivery.

 

[JayCeeNC]

UPS hands off to the Postal Service for some deliveries. I've gotten lots of packages in the last year which were shipped UPS and delivered by my mailman.
Some friends who work for UPS said that the post office also hands off to UPS for delivery in some circumstances.

 

[amazingflapjack]

Every gun I ever sold went USPS through my FFL.

 

[Hillbilly77]

I'm also curious how this ended up for the OP.

I just transferred a handgun the other day, and the shipping FFL said they were shipping via USPS.
They said USPS was allowed as long as the transfer was from FFL to FFL.
If you were shipping a gun back to the mothership for work to be done on it, you can't ship USPS.

I also know that if you use FedEx, you're supposed to tell them "This is a gun."
I don't know if that is a law or their company policy.
I've never shipped a gun via UPS.

 

[3daman!]

I have sent 3 firearms back to the factory for repair. All 3 times they went USPS. 2 pistols and a rifle.
The handguns were in self address boxes furnished by the maker.
S&W front frame crack.
Ruger Blackhawk for broken transfer bar .
Remington 700 for chicken **** finish.
All were returned to my home by USPS.
All three did require signatures to be received by me.

 

[bluegrassarms]

FFLs can absolutely ship USPS to another FFL. We have to fill out form 1508 but we can ship handguns or longguns.

Non-dealers cannot ship handguns or frames/receivers that constitute the "firearm" for GCA purposes, but could ship other parts so long as they cannot be put back together as a gun (which of course they can't since you can't ship the frame).

Non-dealers can ship long guns but another set of rules apply to that. You can mail in state (subject to state laws), or mail to yourself out of state (subject to state laws), or to a FFL. There are also rules for antique guns that are different.

In this case if it came from a FFL there's no issue. If it didn't I agree with the scenario above that the person probably shipped it UPS but didn't declare it a firearm and UPS handed it off to USPS for final delivery. Per UPS rules you must declare it a firearm when you ship it.

I bet he didn't b/c if it's a handgun they and FedEx require overnight shipping, which is very expensive. Long guns can go ground. if he didn't say it was a handgun or the UPS person didn't know their rules require overnight he probably figured to save the money and still send it common carrier. FWIW that's not illegal, at least to not declare it. with UPS now handing stuff over to USPS I have no idea what kind of legal mess you're in if you don't declare it and it ends up going USPS.

Google the "Domestic Mail Manual" or DMM section 601 Mailability subsection 12. It has all the rules. Don't trust ME or anyone else necessarily in such things, go to the source and be sure you're following the rules, even if they do read like stereo instructions translated from Mongolian.

 

[hittman77]

I don't see what the problem is. The gun is at your FFL, how it got there is not really a big deal. What would they do, send it back and have it re-sent by UPS?

Do your paperwork, pay the fee and take it home.

This is what I was thinking too ..... hope it all works out good for you.

 

[bluegrassarms]

I have sent 3 firearms back to the factory for repair. All 3 times they went USPS. 2 pistols and a rifle.
The handguns were in self address boxes furnished by the maker.
S&W front frame crack.
Ruger Blackhawk for broken transfer bar .
Remington 700 for chicken **** finish.
All were returned to my home by USPS.
All three did require signatures to be received by me.

The rifle would be fine, but while I have seen mention of an exception for mailing handguns just back to the manufacturer by the owner for repairs, I can't find anything on it in the USPS manual. I've even seen posts from people who have been told that by postal employees, but I'd love to get the citation.

Even Title 18 of the USC explicitly states:

Such articles also may be conveyed in the
mails to manufacturers of firearms or
bona fide dealers therein in customary
trade shipments, including such articles
for repairs or replacement of parts, from
one to the other, under such regulations
as the Postal Service shall prescribe.

that's in the book FFLs get that covers the GCA etc. It may come from this section of the GCA:

this paragraph and subsection
(b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector
from returning a firearm or
replacement firearm of the same kind
and type to a person from whom it
was received; and this paragraph
shall not be held to preclude an individual
from mailing a firearm owned
in compliance with Federal, State,
and local law to a licensed importer,
licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector;

But that section does NOT say you can use USPS, and elsewhere in both the federal law and the postal regs it makes no such exceptions.

If that language is out there I'd like to see it. Maybe if the manufacturer generates the labels it's somehow seen as them mailing it to themselves, but I'd love that citation. The only thing I can think of is a USPS ruling that they made for that specific case where the manufacturer makes the labels. That's my only swag as to why it would be OK.

 

[arjay]

The two I've sent back to manufacturers,I was told by Colt and S&W to ship overnight with FedEx or UPS.

 

[Doug M.]

Whatever was or was not done incorrectly is over now. The gun is at the FFL, and almost certainly if not already on their books, needs to be. Nothing good will happen by making any further stink over a stupid mistake by someone for whom neither you nor the FFL is responsible. Pay the transfer fee, take it home, enjoy, and all of you shut up.

 

[gdnagle]

Whatever was or was not done incorrectly is over now. The gun is at the FFL, and almost certainly if not already on their books, needs to be. Nothing good will happen by making any further stink over a stupid mistake by someone for whom neither you nor the FFL is responsible. Pay the transfer fee, take it home, enjoy, and all of you shut up.

Maybe the FFL should have listened to you. If there was a issue he shouldn't have signed for it. I'm sure with the weight of the box and overnight shipping he would know what's in there.


Did they transfer it to you or are they holding it hostage for some reason. I've seen private sales with 03 firearms going from a private party to a FFL is this what happened. There are some out there that aren't exactly rocket scientist and may try to ship a modern firearm without a license. They need the receiver license first, before they ship maybe they didn't do that.

 

[SgtLumpy]

Fish in my olfactory...

If USPS knew it was a prohibited item, why did they deliver it?

I think it might just have been the local FFL getting anxious.

If it was indeed prohibited ...
- And it arrived via USPS -
- And the local FFL opened it, found a prohibited item -
- And (lots of and's) that local FFL notified the USPS -

...I can't imagine the local FFL being at any kind of legal fault. He didn't ship it. He didn't request it be shipped by a prohibited method.


Sgt Lumpy