LEO Only ammo

[stick_man]

As discussed in several other threads, there are some makes of ammo that are available only to LEO or the military. One such thread got me thinking, why would an ammo maker make ammo only available to LEO and not to civilians? Is it possible that the LEO ammo is "too effective" for use by civilians in HD or SD situations? Is it so, in the event of a shooting, the forensics team can identify which shots were fired by LEO and which were fired by others? Could it be because the firearms available to the general public (although no different than those for LEO) are considered inferior to those for the LEO and cannot stand up to the "LEO only" ammo?

I have often wondered about such silliness, but have never asked.

 

[venomballistics]

Goes way back to a certain train or bus mass shooting just before the clinton magazine ban. The gunman was gleefully mowing down his victims with then, general public marketed, Winchester Black Talon ammo.
Winchester withdrew this ammo from the general market under pressure from a media frenzy and has been gun shy ever since.
Other manufacturers have done the same.
then we have the government contract stuff like Lake City.
LC ammo plant is entirely a government contractor loading mainly our military stuff with no commercial offerings what so ever. Departments might catch a deal through the Fed government on cases of this stuff .. we have to wait till its past its due date and have it surface as mil surp.

 

[scooter123]

If you look around you'll be able to find a gun shop that is perfectly willing to sell you ammo marked "LEO Only". There isn't any Federal Law against it and I suspect only a few states have bans on selling this ammo. In addition in most cases the only difference between the LEO marked ammo and a civilian version is the size of the box. Speer's Gold Dot ammo is sold in 50 round LEO marked boxes and the same ammo in the civilian version is packaged in 20 round boxes.

 

[all5x]

Another reason is that the LE people have to check their firearms with an armorer every so often to see if there is any wear and tear that might harm the weapon or the shooter and keep it in good working order..civilians do not have a maintenance program and could cause damage to themselves or others..all5x

 

[jdh]

LEO only ammo at one time had not had the FET paid on it as agencies were tax exempt. May or may not still be true.

 

[BigBill]

Many years ago there was the exploding bullets that was offered over the counter as ammo. My relative who owned a gun shop at the time said a lot of local leo's were buying it up. I have a few rounds of 44mag left from my brother.

 

[colt_saa]

Way back when.......LEO agencies were demanding higher performance ammunition but wanted it for their current inventory of duty weapons. This was mostly 9MM autoloaders at the time.

Ammunition companies began to load ammunition to levels above SAMMI specifications to satisfy this segment of the buying market (this is when the +P+ designation was born). However the manufacturers wanted to protect themselves from the foolish private shooter that would take this ammunition that was loaded to above industry standard pressure and decide to use it in Grandpa's decades old war trophy that has never been checked or cleaned.

The ammunition companies voluntarily restricted the sales of this ammunition only to LEO agencies. This reason is explained very well by all5x in his post.

The ammunition companies also made the distributors sign agreements that this ammunition would only be sold to LEO agencies or LEO dealers.

It took a few years before the store front LEO dealers started selling the ammunition to anyone that was willing to pay for it. Now it is quite commonplace.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

In addition to what colt_saa posted, the LEO ammo started around the early '70s with the intro of the 38Spl 110JHP+P+ load by Winchester (often dubbed the "Secret Service", "CHP", "USBP" load etc.), followed by the 9mm 115JHP+P+ loaded by Federal and then Winchester specifically for the Illinois State PD. Both the 38 & 9mm loads were contract loads in which those agencies using this ammo had to sign waivers of liability acknowledging that these loads were high pressure loads above and beyond any SAAMI specs.

If any civilian got a hold of these +P+ loads and proceeded to blow up their pot-metal guns and themselves, the manufacturers can claim immunity since such ammo boxes are marked FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ONLY, therefore said citizen had no reason for using said ammo.

Today there are still quite a bit of different loads still marketed and packaged as LEO ammo. These ammo makers do not market their product to the civilian market as they cannot control who uses their ammo in what gun. If they did market such high pressure non-standard SAAMI approved ammo to civilians then they can easily be held liable for any damages or injuries their ammo caused under unsafe product liability.

 

[-db-]

Here's some old "Police Use Only" stuff.

I've got one of these in .357 Mag., too, but it's still sealed and I'm not breaking it.

 

[sierra255]

I called a friend of mine who sells ammo to LE agencies in WA. & Ore. He told me that certain manufactures have placed restrictions on distributors that they cannot sell some ammo to the general public. Over the past five years, Federal & Speer have placed the most restrictions on him. Some LE agencies who do their own ammo tests to develope standards, then write their specs. and go out for bids commonly known as Requests for Proposals. My wife is a buyer for the City I worked for, and has done these bids.

The bigger agencies order larger amounts of ammo, so they are either made to their specs (example: FBI, Military etc) or the current supplies are sent to agencies. The civilian population is left out till the contracts are filled. A good example is the Sig Sauer P228. The military contracted with Sig to supply them and the P228 disappeared from gun store shelves. JDH is correct when he comments on the FET as that is part of the reasons. In normal circumstances, LEO dealers usually can start selling to the general population 6 mo. to a year after the release of the "so called cop ammo". Colt saa and all5x are right on too.

 

[Knightrider03m]

Any ammo that the manufactures make, you can get, normally online. Don't worry about the LEO only markings.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally the LEO only ammo was not taxed by the Federal Government so it was more affordable for purchase by LEO's. That was the reason it was at one time illegal to sell that ammo to the general public, it's always the money! That may or may no be true today.

 

[WR Moore]

Way back when.......LEO agencies were demanding higher performance ammunition but wanted it for their current inventory of duty weapons. ......Ammunition companies began to load ammunition to levels above SAMMI specifications to satisfy this segment of the buying market (this is when the +P+ designation was born).
..............................
The ammunition companies voluntarily restricted the sales of this ammunition only to LEO agencies.

Actually, the manufacturers supplied the ammunition only after the agencies involved signed hold harmless agreements that stipulated they were aware the ammuntion was above recognized safe levels, would accelerate wear and the use could result in damage to/destruction of weapons and injury/death of the persons using it. Knowing this, they agreed to accept all liability resulting from the use of said ammunition.

Since Joe Public hadn't signed any such agreement, the companies didn't want them getting their hands on any of it and restricted sales.

Once the ammo left the hands of the manufacturers, FET issues weren't any of their concern.

 

[geoff40]

With so many folks believing that using reloads in a SD gun might get them in to a world of trouble, because of speculation on the part of a few misguided minds who write, I can't help but to wonder why the very same argument hasn't been put forth upon those who use "law enforcement only" ammunition in a SD gun.
For example, Federal tactical bonded ammunition, in NH the biggest GS can't display it to the public but they sell it to you if you ask for it. I am not sure if it is the law or Federal policy or what.

I load some of this ammunition in a 9mm M&P and I don't think twice about it personally. But with all this focus on the potential prosecution of a citizen who uses reloads in an otherwise legit SD situation, why is there no such focus/claim put forth when it comes to law enforcement only ammunition in the hands of a citizen? What about the shop that sells the ammunition to the citizen?

 

[chief38]

While I have not tested any currently made LEO only ammo, I have done so with the LEO only Treasury Loads (38 Spl. +P+)made in the early 1970's for the ATF. I have the 95 grain and 110 grain versions (Winchester & Federal), and while they are light and fast, they do not impress me as compared to let's say Buffalo Bore's current loading's or Speer's Gold Dots. I'll just keep them as collectibles but have no intention on using them as SD loads as I feel the newer stuff is far superior.

Chief38

 

[budrichard]

It is true that the Prohibition started showing up on boxes of +P+ ammunition made in the 1970's. I have some Winchester 9mm +P+ 115 gr Jacketed-Controlled Expansion Q4174 marked LE Use Only Not For Reatail Sales.
But since then Ammunition manufacturers have learned that they can sell 20 round boxes to consumers sucessfully at higher prices.
Law Enforcement demands large quantities of ammunition in 50 round boxes, packed 500 or 1000 to the case. They also want competative pricing, therefore the 50 round LE boxes cost about the same usually as the 20 round consumer boxes.
Ther is also matching LE practice ammuntion available also at a substantial savings.
The prohibition against selling ammunition marked LE is still adhered to by most retail stores but on line just about everything is available and with an FFL, all of it except for some esoteric rounds I won't name.
It's all marketing thes days and there is no difference between the Civilian and LE ammunition from the same maker except for some esoteric rounds.-Dick

 

[18DAI]

The local copshop only sells Winchester Ranger ammunition to LEO's. I was told by them that it is Winchesters policy, not the shops. In order to continue to sell it, they have to copy your creds every time you buy.

No matter, I see stacks of boxes of Winchester Ranger "LE only" at every gunshow I attend. Its also readily available to everyone at your local Walmart too. Winchester changed the wrapper and calls it "PDX" "Personal Defense". It is identical in every respect to Ranger SXT.........which is Black Talon with a copper coloring and friendlier sounding name. Regards 18DAI

 

[thndrchiken]

A side note, the Black Talon issue was mainly because of the name, not the bullet. Winchester did pull the Black Talon line and replaced it with Ranger SXT, inside joke is that SXT = Same eXact Thing, minus the lubalox coating of course.

 

[budrichard]

PDX1 bullet is different than the SXT bullet currently found in the Ranger T Series. The PDX1 bullet is analgous to the bullet found in the Ranger Bonded Series.

Pictured are original Black Talon, Ranger T, Ranger Bonded and Winchester Q4369. Q4369 is purported to be the FBI load and is brass cased. Ranger Bonded is the same but nickel cased.
The Civilian PDX1 is not the equivalent of the earlier SXT bullet but the Ranger Bonded..

Pictured above are rounds from all of the above pictured ammunition.
Except for the FMJ, it's impossible to tell one from another!-Dick

 

[stick_man]

Thanks for all the replies. I knew the "restrictions" had been placed primarily by manufacturers now, but didn't even think of the FET issue. Lots of great discussion about the topic.