gregintenn
Member
The difference is that I am able to avoid contact with doctors, electricians, and mechanics. I haven't found a way to avoid contact with LEOs.
LEO'S out of line?
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cmort666
Member
I've managed to avoid most contact with them by avoiding the people and activities which attract them. Fortunately most of my contact with them since I moved out of Chicago has either been positive or at worst indifferent.
The truth is however that if a cop doesn't fear his disciplinary system or the law, he can do pretty much anything he wants in the short term. That's why witnesses, voice recorders and whenever possible, video are vital for your protection.
Obey the law and don't pointlessly hassle the police.
If they pointlessly hassle you, don't fight them by the side of the road. Fight them in court and don't show one iota of mercy. Criminal behavior should be deterred, and not being able to pay your bills or support your family is a serious deterrent.
rburg
Member
I see nothing wrong with discussing the incidents where there is video evidence. Discussing any incident where you don't have an objective way for everyone to see it just doesn't make sense.
Since Lee doesn't want to discuss it here, the sigforum seems like as good a place as any. I think the LEO presence is as large or greater there than here. Of course our guys are a lot more mature....
Anyone who has read my posts there or here will understand that I'm a dedicated basher of bad LEOs. I like and respect the vast majority who do their jobs with dedication and skill. Bashing them is out of place. What I don't understand is the defense of those who do bad things, and they seem to get a pass because of what they do for a living. If we're going to hold them to a higher standard, it needs to start with their co-workers.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
In my experience fellow officers WILL clip the wings of a rouge. Usualy a older officer would dress down a young hot shot in the field.
handejector
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Dick said:
A hypothetical situation-
A guy is a good, honest plumber. He comes home wet, cold, and muddy from crawling around under houses on a winter's day, and wants to relax. He tunes us in, and discovers that everyday, The Lounge has three threads on the front page about sorry, crooked, overpriced plumbers.
Relaxing, huh?
When the bad plumber threads become excessive, I'll discourage them, too.
Here is what I say on page 1-
Does anyone else notice that there are few LEO members commenting in this thread? They're sick of it.
Just like our plumber members would be sick of my hypothetical.
Dick,
A hypothetical situation-
A guy is a good, honest plumber. He comes home wet, cold, and muddy from crawling around under houses on a winter's day, and wants to relax. He tunes us in, and discovers that everyday, The Lounge has three threads on the front page about sorry, crooked, overpriced plumbers.
Relaxing, huh?
When the bad plumber threads become excessive, I'll discourage them, too.
Here is what I say on page 1-
Does anyone else notice that there are few LEO members commenting in this thread? They're sick of it.
Just like our plumber members would be sick of my hypothetical.
handejector
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cmort,
That is an EXCELLENT post.
Kudos.
CelticSire
US Veteran
Seems as if there are two standard comments that people like to make regarding LEO conduct.
So which is it? Should we be treated like everybody else? Or should we be held to a higher standard?
So which is it? Should we be treated like everybody else? Or should we be held to a higher standard?
badam0112
Member
I would say it like this regarding authority. When much is given, much is expected.
handejector
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You pick FIRST, and then, we'll all pick the other one......
cmort666
Member
You have greater authority [and ability to do harm if that authority is misused] so you should be held to a higher standard. If you want to be treated "like everybody else", BE "everybody else" and not a cop. Having greater authority doesn't make you a superior person. It gives you greater responsibility for your actions using that authority.
It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see cops who misbehave, as well as those who support them, saying EXACTLY the same things that gang members do when they get caught. A crime isn't a "mistake". It's a CHOICE. If you choose to sell crack on a streetcorner, or if you choose to falsify evidence, those are crimes. Neither the crack dealer nor the cop deserves any sympathy or mercy. You knew what you were doing. Be a man and take your medicine. Since the cop's transgression calls the entire system into question, the medicine should be stronger.
If they do NOTHING else, police should obey the law, not violate it or make it up on the fly.
Regarding different standards, the law makes it pretty clear, at least here in Texas. When reduced to the simplest terms, the law allows the citizen to respond to force with "equal" force. The sworn officer is empowered to respond to force with the "necessary" force.
Consequently, as a licensed concealed carry citizen, I cannot over react to a non-lethal threat with a lethal response. The Officer, on the other hand, can respond with a force which he/she deems to be necessary to control the situation. The difficulty occurs whenever either the sworn officer or the non-sworn citizen is forced to make an instantaneous decision which may be colored by emotion, lack of training, fatigue, environment, or a thousand other factors.
Bob
Consequently, as a licensed concealed carry citizen, I cannot over react to a non-lethal threat with a lethal response. The Officer, on the other hand, can respond with a force which he/she deems to be necessary to control the situation. The difficulty occurs whenever either the sworn officer or the non-sworn citizen is forced to make an instantaneous decision which may be colored by emotion, lack of training, fatigue, environment, or a thousand other factors.
Bob
I'll add another comment to my previous one. Much of the difficulty which arises between citizens and LEOs can be traced to the following scenario:
1)The Officer observes some violation and confronts the citizen with a level of force which the officer feels is appropriate.
2)The citizen reacts to the officer's confrontation with a level of response which the citizen feels is justified.
3)The Officer escalates his force to what he/she feels is necessary to continue or regain control of the situation.
4)"Game On!"
The appropriate response from the citizen, in the vast majority of cases, is to refrain from doing anything which the LEO may interpret as an escalation to his initial interaction with the citizen. That may include, but is not limited to: fighting back, running, mouthing off, etc.
Best advice is to maintain enough composure to pick your battles. The citizen will lose that battle, even if he may ultimately win the war.
Bob
1)The Officer observes some violation and confronts the citizen with a level of force which the officer feels is appropriate.
2)The citizen reacts to the officer's confrontation with a level of response which the citizen feels is justified.
3)The Officer escalates his force to what he/she feels is necessary to continue or regain control of the situation.
4)"Game On!"
The appropriate response from the citizen, in the vast majority of cases, is to refrain from doing anything which the LEO may interpret as an escalation to his initial interaction with the citizen. That may include, but is not limited to: fighting back, running, mouthing off, etc.
Best advice is to maintain enough composure to pick your battles. The citizen will lose that battle, even if he may ultimately win the war.
Bob
One of my grumbles as a citizen, regardless of who is president, is the silly notion that once the nation is involved in ANY kind of armed conflict, expressing any views contrary to the administration's views is considered "not supporting the troops." That's nonsense, that's just a way of stifling dissent.
By the same token, I become irritated when it seems that LEOs can do absolutely no wrong, and that no matter what they do, it's wrong ever to call them on it, for fear that you'll be drowned out by a chorus of voices saying, "you're not a cop, you don't know what it's like, you weren't there, how would you know," and so forth.
I think LE work is horribly difficult and maddeningly imprecise and contradictory at times, and takes place in a spoiled and litiginous culture.
That being said, I was sickened by the video I saw of the youth who had run from the cops, realized the jig was up, and lay on his stomach with his hands in a neutral position, only to have the first arriving officer kick him in the head.
It's not the police officer's job to deliver punishment. The courts do that. And perps lying on their stomachs with their hands empty and visible require no further subduing. The kid ran. Then he stopped. End of story. End of escalation. I do not understand how calling the LEO on that situation makes me soft on crime or somehow suggests I do not know or understand what cops are going through. I'm willing to have my mind changed, but not by someone yelling about how I don't understand the job. Kicking an unarmed and non-resisting suspect - I just do not understand that, and that seems to me to be a case where the cop was out of line.
By the same token, I become irritated when it seems that LEOs can do absolutely no wrong, and that no matter what they do, it's wrong ever to call them on it, for fear that you'll be drowned out by a chorus of voices saying, "you're not a cop, you don't know what it's like, you weren't there, how would you know," and so forth.
I think LE work is horribly difficult and maddeningly imprecise and contradictory at times, and takes place in a spoiled and litiginous culture.
That being said, I was sickened by the video I saw of the youth who had run from the cops, realized the jig was up, and lay on his stomach with his hands in a neutral position, only to have the first arriving officer kick him in the head.
It's not the police officer's job to deliver punishment. The courts do that. And perps lying on their stomachs with their hands empty and visible require no further subduing. The kid ran. Then he stopped. End of story. End of escalation. I do not understand how calling the LEO on that situation makes me soft on crime or somehow suggests I do not know or understand what cops are going through. I'm willing to have my mind changed, but not by someone yelling about how I don't understand the job. Kicking an unarmed and non-resisting suspect - I just do not understand that, and that seems to me to be a case where the cop was out of line.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Somehow through the years we have been "educated" or "brainwashed" whichever, that present day thinking is superior to the old time way of doing things. It is sacrereligous to say otherwise. Now before I get in deeper I will state that on my old job or if I was a LEO today, I WOULD follow the rules, not because I belive them, but my livelyhood and family is worth more than a scumbag. It is almost solely because of the developed "rules" that we see these hour long car chases, helicopters and prades of police cars in slow pursuit on the 5 pm news. For some gangs I belive I heard it is a initiation requirement. Sometimes many innocent people and cars get banged up and some killed. The idiots have no hope of getting away with the heliocopters. Probley in most events they call fellow banger in advance and say hey, leroy watch da news, ah gwan be cool fool dis afernoon!
Ever wonder why there wasnt much of this or 20 million illegals before the early 60s? Hows that working for us?
Ever wonder why there wasnt much of this or 20 million illegals before the early 60s? Hows that working for us?
cmort666
Member
I'm not going to argue with the cop by the side of the road. If he violates my rights, I however reserve the right to after the fact expend an unlimited amount of effort to destroy his career, finances and family life.
Sometimes a bully just picks the wrong victim.
cmort666
Member
And just as important, an unwillingness to be intimidated.
CelticSire
US Veteran
Originally posted by handejector:
You pick FIRST, and then, we'll all pick the other one......
My choice is simple - I think LEOs should be held to the same standard as everyone else, not a higher one. And here's why. If the standard is that a citizen who breaks the law is arrested, is tried and found guilty, then he or she should serve whatever punishment the courts deem sufficient. If a LEO breaks the law and gets caught, same thing. On the other hand, if the citizen is found innocent, then he or she walks, same as the LEO should. I have yet to find a higher standard than the law. What would be simple assault if a citizen does it, a misdemeanor, is offical oppression, a felony, if committed by a LEO. So, arrest him, try him, and serve punishment if found guilty. Higher standard? No, just enforcing the law as approriate. Seems pretty simple to me. I have yet to understand why we need more than one standard.
cmort666
Member
But all too often we have more than one standard, and it's a lower one for law enforcement.Originally posted by CelticSire:
Originally posted by handejector:
You pick FIRST, and then, we'll all pick the other one......
My choice is simple - I think LEOs should be held to the same standard as everyone else, not a higher one. And here's why. If the standard is that a citizen who breaks the law is arrested, is tried and found guilty, then he or she should serve whatever punishment the courts deem sufficient. If a LEO breaks the law and gets caught, same thing. On the other hand, if the citizen is found innocent, then he or she walks, same as the LEO should. I have yet to find a higher standard than the law. What would be simple assault if a citizen does it, a misdemeanor, is offical oppression, a felony, if committed by a LEO. So, arrest him, try him, and serve punishment if found guilty. Higher standard? No, just enforcing the law as approriate. Seems pretty simple to me. I have yet to understand why we need more than one standard.
If I had done to Kathryn Johnston what those Atlanta cops did, I'd never set foot outside of a prison again... if I didn't get the death penalty, which in Illinois, I would under the Felony Murder Rule.
I'm repulsed when I see cops referring to violent felonies committed by other cops as "mistakes". When you try to kick a woman's brains out in a drunken rage, then threaten retaliation against the victim, it's not a "mistake", it's a choice, whether you're a cop or a fry cook.
