LEOSA Qualification and a Model 13

ispcapt, I think my understanding is the same as your's. I also doubt the rifle and shotgun explanation you were given as being valid based on the ability to conceal. To me, the argument involving the type of semi-auto action makes some sense, but, like you, I think some are over-complicating the issue, including my department. In fairness, I have to say that is partly my fault because I wrote the department policy originally that said officers had to qualify with any gun they intended to carry off-duty or as a back-up while I was the admin. division Lt. and in charge of firearms instruction and qualification. Somehow, that got carried over to include retirees once LEOSA came in and the annual qualification card had to be issued. We use a two-card system with a department ID and separate qualification card. Now, we're trying to change this over to what is being used by other California agencies. We're finding that most do what you have suggested; a card that indicates revolver or semi-auto, or both.

Pretty amazing how there are so many interpretations of a federal statute that affects us all. I know LEOSA has been further defined a bit over time, but it would be nice if we could see it become more standardized. However, we all know that won't happen because of the differences in the political atmosphere in each state.
 
snowman.45 said:
Pretty amazing how there are so many interpretations of a federal statute that affects us all. I know LEOSA has been further defined a bit over time, but it would be nice if we could see it become more standardized. However, we all know that won't happen because of the differences in the political atmosphere in each state.
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I'm amazed at the different course's of fire, lights, no lights and round count each individual state has adopted for different departments. When I qualified per HR218 (over 20 years ago) we shot 50 rounds, in light, no light, and beacons on in the dark. Now, it's silly, still timed, but only 8 rounds total from a holster. Shoot any auto to carry an auto, or a revolver of choice to carry any revolver. That hasn't changed.
 
I know we have hashed this out many times before, but LEOSA is again in need of yet a third amendment since original passage in 2004. A great law for rank & file LE, but few implementation guidelines. A Federal law, but left up to the individual states to actually run. We are left with a hodgepodge of different rules depending on your state of residence, and even the LE agency that you retired from. Is it time to lobby for some kind of "czar" at the federal level to create a uniform ID & a uniform qual course . My brother is a MA local cop and I heard that state was moving towards a uniform form of police identification for all LE agencies in that state.
 
I worked as a LEO in Alabama and retired there. I moved to Virginia and the local sheriff's office has conducted the qualification. My card reads (skipping the title info)

Retired law-enforcement officer (my name) has met annual firearms training and qualification standards established by (local SO) to carry a concealed handgun, valid one year from date of issuance.

It signed by the firearms instructor and has the date issued.
Of course, I also carry my ID card issued by my PD.
 
I'm probably not alone in my circumstance, but the agency where I worked and retired from is so incredibly uber-cautious about ANYTHING liability-related that they're not ABOUT to have retirees and strangers on their range shooting ANY kind of course.

I've moved ~3 hours away and fortunate to have met a retired LE guy here who instructs BLET (Basic LE Training) at the local Community College. He's more than accommodating. It is not easy to find Instructors for LEOSA in this area.
 
One problem with having federal control over the entire process is it won't be simple. It will be more complicated and more restrictive. And it will cost more. It's what the govt does best. For sure it won't be a more lenient version as in most states.
When our dept first started issuing LEOSA cards we had our retired ID and then a separate LEOSA card. On the LEOSA card was listed the exact gun(s) you fired including serial numbers. The intent was that if you were ever questioned if you had qualified with an auto or a revolver you could show on your card "Yup, says so right here. A S&W 6904, 9mm, serial number XXXXX." Proof that sure enough you definitely qualified with an auto. Then rumors started going around (yeah, I know, hard to believe there are rumors in LE) that the intent was you could only carry the specific firearm that you qualified with. No, that wasn't what it was about. The dept was trying to help them out with providing proof they could carry with them but rumors are more believable to some than the truth. So the dept went to just a card that said you shot and qualified with either revolver, auto, or both. Guess what happened then? Now the whiners. I no longer have proof that I qualified with an auto. My old card showed I shot an auto, now the new card doesn't show it.
In addition, range officers were complaining they had to keep records of old retired cops. They already had too much paperwork to do. They shouldn't have to keep track of records for someone who wasn't working any more. Range officers don't like paperwork. Again, hard to believe whining and complaining in LE.
Now what the dept does is when a retiree comes to qualify you fill out your score sheet and your shoot is scored. They stick that in a folder with your name. Some talk of scanning those and doing storage electronically but I don't know if that's been implemented yet. Then on your retired ID card you get a new sticker with the month and year it expires. No indication whether revolver or auto, just that you comply with LEOSA. They decided if you were ever in a legal proceeding where it was questioned if you were qualified the records were going to be subpoenaed anyway so no need for the retiree to keep those records. If there's any question they can call HQ who will pull your folder and confirm your qual. No more paperwork for the range staff and no extra card for the retiree to keep track of.
If someone works for a dept that doesn't qualify their retirees or a retiree moves into the state and doesn't know of a place to qualify the state set up the Illinois Retired Officers Concealed Carry office. (Illinois Retired Officer Concealed Carry Program - IROCC) The retiree can contact the IROCC office and will be set them up with a qualification site close to the retiree's location. No matter where you are in the state you're no more than a 1 hour drive from some place to qualify. 20+ sites around the state. You go to one of the locations, do your qual shoot, and they send the paperwork to the IROCC office which will send you your qualification card. $75 for one gun and $100 for 2 guns to cover the range expenses, cost of the range officer, and administrative cost of processing the card.
IL's qualification shoot is more of a weapon function check than qualification. The basic course of fire is 30 rounds with 21 hits on 8"X14" center target. 12 rounds from 5 yards, 12 rounds from 7 yards, and 6 rounds from 15 yards.
 
All of us old retired cops have many valid concerns regarding the rules of issuing of a valid "Retired Officer In Good Standing Conceal Carry Card".

My concern is those young warrior cops who have no clue about HR218. Especially if stopped by an outside agency or maybe worse stopped out of state. I've noticed my department issue ID is even different from the current style. My style is so old it looks like it was produced on a copy machine in someones basement. It appears from the posts, we all get issued different qualification cards. Then again, no two driver licenses are alike, they differ from state to state. It is what it is. :D
 
Muley Gil said:
"$75 for one gun and $100 for 2 guns to cover the range expenses, cost of the range officer, and administrative cost of processing the card."

I shoot with the county deputies and other retirees. I provide my own ammo. Other than that, there is no cost.
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The $75/$100 price I described is for those retirees whose former depts won't/can't qualify them or for example a retiree who moved to the state and doesn't know any PD who will let him qualify. If you can't find a place to get your qualification done then contact IROCC and they'll hook you up with a place.
Some PDs around here don't charge either. It's going to make a difference just how many retirees a dept will qualify. If a retiree is from a small PD where they only have a handful of retirees to qual then that dept might want to absorb the costs involved for targets, paperwork and range officer's time. I don't know how many retirees from my dept qualify. The year I retired there was over 1000. No doubt a lot more now. Can't expect the state to eat the cost of targets, paperwork, and range officer time. My dept charges us $10 whether we shoot 1 gun or 2. Same price. The $10 stays at the range to buy new targets, frames, repairs around the place.
 
Muley Gil said:
"$75 for one gun and $100 for 2 guns to cover the range expenses, cost of the range officer, and administrative cost of processing the card."

I shoot with the county deputies and other retirees. I provide my own ammo. Other than that, there is no cost.
Click to expand...

Muley, Same with me...I bring my own ammo, the former agency provides the rest...Just their way of saying..."Thank you for your service". I guess.

Also same..I have a plastic "Non-Expiring" photo ID, showing my retirement status...A separate photo plastic ID showing I've qualified under LEOSA. That ID does show the expiration date. So I get a new LEOSA card every year...

My old agency does not limit our card to what we qualify with...Shot a revolver...Some of us old codgers still shoot revolvers...But can carry a auto if that's what we wish to carry... For me...I have three different hand guns for carry, depending on what I'm wearing..summer or winter...Sometimes I carry my Smith 65-3, sometimes a Glock 43, sometimes a TomCat..My LEOSA card does not limit me .


WuzzFuzz
 
I just did mine over the last two months.... Here in NH one must not only qualify with the exact gun(s) to be carried but also sit through a four hour Use of Deadly Force course just like you were still on active duty.

It is also very hard here to find departments willing to let you qualify with them. Fortunately one of the SOs does it for us for free...just bring your gun(s) and ammo. Have to do back to back passing scores with each firearm.

We have IDs issued from the department we retire from and then get a letter from the State or sometimes the department qualifying us. The letter states the qualification location and the guns qualified with.

Because Maine, Vermont and NH are all Constitutional Carry carry states the only time I carry the guns on my LEOSA credentials is when I go "south of the border", as in Mass., Conn., RI, NY and NJ which don't recognize anyone else's permits. Right now I have a Glock 19 and Kahr P380 on the list...easy to replace if a problem arises........

Bob

ps...yesterday got to qualify with two more guns...my daily carry 1911 Commander and a 60-10...first time I have shot a revolver on the course and did as well as with the semis...
 
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I'm so pleased to read that there are still retired LEOs out there that carry these fantastic revolvers. I really enjoy reading the posts and looking at the photos. I have a 3" Mod-13 and 65, along a Performance Center 13. I qualify annually for my retired ID card and many times the Range Masters have no idea even what they are looking at, but they to seem to enjoy looking at the guns and shooting them.
 
Good for you, love it! My 3" M13 is one awesome shooter. I prefer the combats (Culina's of course) and the balance is probably as good as any revolver I own.

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Hey if it works for you (sounds like it certainly does) more power to you! :)
 
I love bringing out my Model 19 or 10 when running requals every year at our range. Inevitably there will be one or two people over the 500 or so thet we run through every year that will say something along the lines of it being too old or not effective yada, yada, yada. That debate is usually settled rather convincingly during the lunch break when I go head to head with them on the semi auto requal course with the revolver and usually clean it if I do my part. Doing one hole or other accuracy drills against one of our M&P 40's is where the revolver really comes into its own. I'm still on the young side (early 40's) so it's not just an old man's gun to me.
Also, any retired LEO's around Hamilton County in Ohio who need to get their LEOSA requal done and are having trouble finding a place or are getting charged, PM me and we can get you in. You provide the ammo and a retired ID, and we'll get everything else.
 
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