Lessons from Miami shootout for civilians?

[PeterCartwright]

References to the infamous Miami shootout in another thread got me to contemplating. I'm not now, nor have I ever been in law inforcement. Neither have I served in the military or at any time experienced combat, real or imagined. With those disclaimers, I offer the following for discussion:

The most common references I read to lessons from Miami link to ammunition/cartridge performance and the vaunted FBI standards. I'm grateful for all that, of course. Still, I'm wondering if the more important lessons to learn from that tragedy ought to be about the dangers of complacency, presuming actions or reactions from dangerous persons, reminders how quickly a person can get "over their head" in a situation, etc. These lessons, it would seem to me, are as relevant to legally armed civilians as to law enforcement professionals.

I'm especially interested in hearing from members who've been "over the mountain and seen the elephant." What wisdom can you share with the rest of us?

PC

 

[LoboGunLeather]

From a two-tour Vietnam veteran and retired cop, here is my two cents worth:

Avoid areas where your personal safety is in question.

Always be aware of what is going on around you.

Avoid confrontation.

Walk away if you can.

Run away if you must.

When all else fails, do what you have to do to stay alive.

If forced to defend yourself make a report to authorities something like this: "I was in fear for my life and defended myself. I need to consult with an attorney now". Then shut up, lawyer up, and let your lawyer do all of your talking for you.

There will be nothing pleasant in your life for many months, perhaps several years, from that point. Keep reminding yourself that what is happening to you now could not have happened if you had failed to survive.

 

[Jellybean]

Peter, the only elephants I've ever seen were at the zoo, but I agree with you. There were many mistakes made that could have been avoided and should have never been made in the first place. I can't really say that there was anything to be learned that hadn't been found out before though, but to blame the ammunition and firearms used is almost criminal. Instead of trying to teach people things that may keep them alive, they clouded the issue with dribble about firearms and ammunition that should have never been used in the first place.

 

[Chili Vega]

I believe the FBI looked at the entire incident and tried to learn from the mistakes made. A part of this was to look at the equipment used as well as the tactics etc...If the performance of the issued equipment does not meet the standards desired then it only makes sense to re-evaluate it. In '91 I went through an FBI firearms instructor course and this was very much the attitude they had. They by no means tried to blame it all on the firearms and ammunition.

 

[SFCHAINLEY]

LESSON LEARNED

Practice till your good enough to make head shots.

 

[RussellD]

In a shooting school I attended they discussed mistakes made in the Miami shootout. One of which was some of the agents placed their firearms on the seat in anticipation of the shootout. Just before the shooting started one of the cars was rammed. The sidearms went into the floor board of the vehicle.....

 

[OKFC05]

From a two-tour Vietnam veteran and retired cop, here is my two cents worth:

Avoid areas where your personal safety is in question.

Always be aware of what is going on around you.

Avoid confrontation.

Walk away if you can.

Run away if you must.

When all else fails, do what you have to do to stay alive.

If forced to defend yourself make a report to authorities something like this: "I was in fear for my life and defended myself. I need to consult with an attorney now". Then shut up, lawyer up, and let your lawyer do all of your talking for you.

There will be nothing pleasant in your life for many months, perhaps several years, from that point. Keep reminding yourself that what is happening to you now could not have happened if you had failed to survive.

This.

Especially this:
When all else fails, do what you have to do to stay alive.

I absolutely cringe at the CHL students who want to talk about "stopping crimes" and "intervention."

 

[PeterCartwright]

I believe the FBI looked at the entire incident and tried to learn from the mistakes made. A part of this was to look at the equipment used as well as the tactics etc...If the performance of the issued equipment does not meet the standards desired then it only makes sense to re-evaluate it. In '91 I went through an FBI firearms instructor course and this was very much the attitude they had. They by no means tried to blame it all on the firearms and ammunition.

Thanks for that. I'm sorry if my post seemed to infer that the Feds hadn't thoroughly debriefed that incident. That was not my intent.

PC

 

[PeterCartwright]

I absolutely cringe at the CHL students who want to talk about "stopping crimes" and "intervention."

Fair enough. It's important to distinguish between the armed civilian who may hopefully have the luxury of running away from trouble and the LEO who often cannot. I do not question the distinction between those two roles.

PC

 

[photoman]

What I learned from the Miami shootout was...

If you're ~going to a gunfight~ for heavens sake, don't take a handgun or a shotgun. Take a full power rifle. That shootout would've been over in 30 seconds if the agents had been using Garands.

 

[Matt C.]

What I learned from the Miami shootout was...

If you're ~going to a gunfight~ for heavens sake, don't take a handgun or a shotgun. Take a full power rifle. That shootout would've been over in 30 seconds if the agents had been using Garands.

Disagree.
It would have been over in 30 seconds if they had ONE Garand.

 

[flop-shank]

What Photoman said, except shotguns in all the agents hands would have been decisive as well.

IMO, the 9mm ammo could have worked better, but that wasn't the real issue. I will add that the often criticised Dove bullet did exactly what it was supposed to and did penetrate reasonably well. It just wasn't quite as deep as us Monday morning quarterbacks would have liked to see. The real issue, in my mind, is that whoever was behind a policy, or policies, that had law enforcement officers trying to capture bank robbers who were known to be ruthless murderers armed with long guns, yet kept them from being as well armed, ought to have gotten their *** roasted. That was downright criminal, IMO. So the first lesson is use a long gun if possible. Look at the very decisive results Doc Holliday got at the O.K. Corral using a side by side 12 gauge.

I've studied the Miami shootout pretty thoroughly and feel that the agents marksmanship was commendable given the circumstances (bad guys in shadows, FBI in the sunlight, dust from the car crash, gunsmoke, cars driving through the middle of the shootout while it was going on , injuries/bloodloss, having to rely on snub backup guns, shooting at moving targets and distance in the case of SAs Orrantia and Risner), and yes, the FBI landed headshots as well. SA McNeil rendered William Matix combat ineffective with one at the beginning of the fight.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Matix and Platt were very experienced, well trained infantrymen. I don't know the caliber of the training of all the FBI agents, but in the past when I took part in training excercises that pitted experienced grunts against support troops, the infantrymen usually beat the noncombat soldiers very decisively. Given the fact that the G men weren't as well armed as Platt and Matix, plus the BG's background, I think the FBI agents did well.

The second lesson is to carry multiple guns. SA Manauzzi had to withdraw from the fight for lack of a BUG. Agent Hanlon stayed in the fight because he had one. IIRC, SA Dove's piece was disabled by gunfire and he didn't have one. SA Mireles transitioned to his 686, and fired the closing shots of the fight, after his 870 Wingmaster went dry. SA McNeil was shot and disabled trying to get to his 870 in the back of his car. His piece was empty and he couldn't get it working because of bone chips under the extractor. Michael Platt used his S&W 586 at one point, but dropped it after taking a bullet through the forearm. He later took Matix's Dan Wesson .357 and fired it as well. One gun may not be enough and there are many fights other than this one that prove the point.

1. Use long guns.

2. Use multiple guns.

 

[sigp220.45]

I can asssure you that lesson was learned. Every agent who wants one gets an M4. I prefer the MP5/10mm, but I'm in the definite minority.

There was a shooting recently at an Air Force base in Florida. An FBI agent happened to be at the main gate on other business when it happened. M4 in the trunk, got it out in plenty of time, bad guy was DRT.

Army Veteran Fatally Shot at MacDill AFB in Tampa - ABC News

 

[cmort666]

Run away if you must.

I was a lousy runner as a 21 year old Second Lieutenant. At 52, I'm not one iota faster.

In Ohio outside of my home, I'm required to ATTEMPT to withdraw, if I can do so IN PERFECT SAFETY. Turning my back on somebody with a gun and trying to outrun a bullet doesn't meet that standard. The US Army was REALLY insistent that I couldn't outrun a bullet. Hell, I can't outrun the guy with the gun.

 

[amd6547]

I learned three things, which I was already aware of:
1. accuracy counts.
2. decisive immediate action is paramount.
3. never underestimate the shooting skill and drive of the opponent.

 

[Strato]

Practice till your good enough to make head shots.

I agree with this completely. If God forbid I'm ever in a gunfight if I drop the badguy I don't want to wonder if he's gonna roll over and shoot me. If I see his brains come out the back of his head I'll know it's over.

 

[PeterCartwright]

I learned three things, which I was already aware of:
1. accuracy counts.
2. decisive immediate action is paramount.
3. never underestimate the shooting skill and drive of the opponent.

#3 hits hard. I can't tell you how many times I've heard or read comments about the poor marksmanship and/or cowardice of this or that segment of miscreants. That may be true...except when it's NOT. It's a great lesson to take from Miami.

PC

 

[cp1969]

Lesson #1--Once the first shot is fired, adrenaline kicks in and gives the body strength and stamina far beyond normal. The only way to stop someone pumped up on adrenaline is to hit the computer (brain) or disconnect the wires (CNS) that are running the show. You can blast somebody into hamburger with good, solid, sure-to-be-fatal hits but until the blood supply is exhausted, like a chicken with its head cut off, the person who is dead but doesn't know it yet will continue to function as if on autopilot.

Caliber and muzzle energy matter little at this point--hitting the Central Nervous System is only way to stop them before they can do more damage. If anything, expanding bullets are a detriment to finishing the job. What you need now is penetration, in the hopes that a bullet will penetrate enough to hit some part of the CNS. Destroying tissue is of no help once the bad guy is running on adrenaline.

 

[celticfisherman]

From a two-tour Vietnam veteran and retired cop, here is my two cents worth:

Avoid areas where your personal safety is in question.

Always be aware of what is going on around you.

Avoid confrontation.

Walk away if you can.

Run away if you must.

When all else fails, do what you have to do to stay alive.

If forced to defend yourself make a report to authorities something like this: "I was in fear for my life and defended myself. I need to consult with an attorney now". Then shut up, lawyer up, and let your lawyer do all of your talking for you.

There will be nothing pleasant in your life for many months, perhaps several years, from that point. Keep reminding yourself that what is happening to you now could not have happened if you had failed to survive.

THIS RIGHT HERE!!!!!! Answers the original question in a very concise and quick manner. 100% dead on.

I am not a LEO, not military, or any type of security personnel. However I have spent a tremendous amount of time with LEO and Military (lots of time with the SpecOps people) and this sums up what they have told me over and over again. Situational awareness is the best defense we can have.

This is indeed what we should carry from any deadly encounter. Do what we can to avoid the encounter. Because it can all go horribly wrong. When we make the decision to carry these are the issues we have to have in the back of our minds all the time.

I've needed a gun once. Thank God I had one. But I could have without doubt avoided the situation.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Running away isn't always a good idea, you aren't going to outrun a bullet and as Charles Askins said, the best place to shoot a man is in the back. It also might mean moving away from a problem that really someone ought try to deal with, and if that someone has to be you, shrug...

Wear your vest if you have one and it is remotely warranted. It's a lousy time to bleed out in the street thinking how you left it at home. Learn how to treat a GSW too, at least to apply your Izzy bandage and maybe a tourniquet.