Let the weeping and gnashing of teeth begin

[steelslaver]

Probable cause same same as reasonable suspicion.

As you yourself show with Terry vs Ohio, that for a stop and detain to be legal 4 elements (not just 1 of 4 either) need to exist. I am asking how you can say those elements exist when a person is simply printing. They do not. You may well be able to stop someone and detain them for it with no legal repercussions to yourself, but it is a total waste of time. I am saying there is no way you could get any kind of conviction for anything from such a stop in most states because the very elements you showed in Terry vs Ohio simply DO NOT EXIST.

I ask again what are you reasonably suspicious of?? Especial in a no permit state. He has a gun? So, what? That is hardly suspicious in many areas of the country. (NO PROBABLE CAUSE to suspect a crime or criminal activity, zero nada).

What is out of the ordinary? Again especial true in a no permit state. Around here someone with a gun is hardly out of the ordinary. LOL. Plus, in an counrty where 1 out of 15 have a permit it would hardly be out of the ordinary for some one to be carrying a gun. Once you subtract the 74 million under 18 and the 6 million over 85 and the 2 million in prison, 8 million in NYC and the 39 million in CA who are deprived of their right to bear arms and every law enforcement officer the ratio is 1 permit holder for less than 10 people. Hardly odd to encounter some one carrying a gun once you leave CA, huh?

What criminal activity??? Especial true in a no permit state. Concealed carry is NOT a crime for the vast majority of adults. What reason would you have to suspect they were a prohibited person. You have ESP??

The only one is if the person is printing it is obviously connected to him, but the last one out of the 4 will not get you anywhere in court with this. A judge in this state would laugh you right out of court for stopping some one because you saw they had a gun.

I know the difference between detain and arrest. I contend that simply printing, especially in a no permit state does not in any way satisfy the first 3 elements needed to detain as per Terry vs Ohio.

You would be overstepping to detain for printing and any thing found after that is fruit of the forbidden tree.

Please realize the most of the rest of us do not live in CA where almost nobody can legally carry. A printing stop may fly there. But, in most other states that actually believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights NO

 

[johngalt]

This battle has already been fought and won by the open carry organizations. Police used to stop and harass them, claiming they had probable cause to suspect a crime was afoot, usually 'disturbing the peace' even though Ohio defines no such crime.

The police finally learned after many losses and a few settlements.

Likewise, driving is not probable cause that you are driving without license. Police can't stop drivers merely on the assumption they don't have a license.

 

[IndianaDave]

I am pleased to announce Indiana has joined the Constitutional Carry Club. Gov. Holcomb signed it into law today. A very pleasant surprise, it seems he had a bunch of these Mommies Who Demand Attention camped out at his office and he had the backbone to sign it.

 

[Rustyt1953]

Indiana is #24.

 

[walter o]

as of july 1st indiana will be constitutional carry

 

[biku324]

To be clear, 'reasonable suspicion' is a legal standard that allows police to to briefly stop and investigate a person or persons. 'Probable cause' is the Constitutional standard for arrest or search. These are not interchangeable; a police officer could have resonable suspicion to make an investigative stop and brief detention, but never develop probable cause to arrest or search.

 

[steelslaver]

Yes, it is a lower standard, but my position is suspecting someone has a gun is not a valid reason for any kind of stop. No different than suspecting I have a set of car keys. I am legally allowed to have both and carry them. There is nothing what so ever unusual about it, nor any reason what so ever to suspect criminal activity.

 

[biku324]

Sure, in most of the country. But reasonable suspicion has always been about sets of circumstances; since the growth of legal CCW, presence of a gun in lawful spaces is less determinative than, say, in the '90s or before and is now trained that way in police academies. Things change.

 

[steelslaver]

Exactly and I am sure in places like NYC and California, the number of legal carriers is still low enough that it would be odd and suspicious.

Main difference here is more people used to open carry on their person. Carrying a gun anywhere visible and concealed in your car has always been legal here without a permit.