Let’s see your Luger(s) and share what we know about them

[zeke]

A G-42, i think. Likely am not knowledgeable to correctly identify it. Found it in small gun store awhile ago, and bought it because always wanted one. Reportedly a war bring back and all parts match except mag. Shot it a couple of times and surprised by it's accuracy. Functioned fine with Q4172 Win fmj. Didn't like cleaning it and haven't shot it in some years. Am not a good photographer.

 

[TJm15.38]

Here is my only Luger. It was purchased in the late 90's when I lived in PA. I don't know much about it other than it is a Russian capture and has, no doubt been refinished with some markings removed. I know it is a Mauser manufactured weapon because of the S42 on the toggle, but it looks like the year has been ground off. All the numbers match except the magazine. The grips are not original. It's a good shooter, but I don't shoot it much. The best ammo for it is 124 grain FMJ. Hollow points are often problematic to reliably feed. Thanks for looking.

 

[bgrafsr]

I always wanted an artillery Luger but likely will never get one.

While on the Police Dept., I was contacted by a local attorney who wanted me to look over some guns he took as payment. I went to his office and he had an Artillery Luger among the guns. It was in very rough shape, so I declined buying it. I wasn't interested in the other guns either.

 

[bgrafsr]

1916 DWM P08 Luger
I purchased this Luger 12/24/16 from my wife's uncle Dale. He would stop by a pawn shop on the way home from school several times during the week in Elberton, Ga. and one day in 1955 he found this 1916 Luger and a long barreled Artilley Luger. He asked his dad to go with him to purchase it and he left with the Luger, 1917 dated holster, tool, and two magazines and $25 less in his account. He shot it a few times after that, and in 1970 he and his wife took a firearms course in Cobb County, Ga and used this Luger. The instructor told him it was the most accurate gun in the class. After that he stored it away in the holster, with both magazines loaded, never to be shot again. Around 1996 he put it in his banks safety deposit box, again stored in the holster with the tool and two mags loaded with 8 rounds. He emailed me about 3-4 weeks before Christmas 2016 saying he knew I collected Guns and would I be interested in this one. I collect old S&W revolvers but have been wanting a nice Luger for awhile. I, of course, said I would be interested. He nor I knew much about them. He asked me to post some pics on some forums and see what the value was. I also sent him pages of completed auctions on Gunbrokers. Some Luger forum members were able to help me with a ballpark figure and and I passed on their stated value and input to him. We met on Christmas Eve at a family get together and after looking it over I made him an offer that I felt was fair, and an offer that he apparently felt was fair, as he was a little shocked. He said he was more than happy with the price and I was too. After my research I've found that it is a 1916 DWM Luger, with what appears to be the correct markings on the right side of receiver. Numbers are all matching (per chart showing which parts are marked), including grips (but not magazines), several of the numbers appear to have the correct "halos" that go along with an original finish, and all edges and lettering appear to be sharp. The serial number is 4691 M, and it has unit markings on the front grip frame as follows- 2.M.C. R.158.
2nd Machine Gun Company, Regiment No. 158. This was a Prussian regiment, originally, “7.Lothringisches Infanterie=Regiment, established on 31 March 1897 in Paderborn, Germany. At the outbreak of the Great War, the 158th was assigned to the 13thInfantry Division, VII Corps, 2nd Army. In March, 1915 the 158th was transferred to the 50th Division and remained with them until the end of the war.

The combat record of the 158th is very interesting. It was part of the Imperial German element that invaded Belgium fighting in both Champagne and Artois prior to its transfer to the 50th Infantry Division. After joining the 50th, the 158th fought in Verdun-Vaux, Argonne, Aisne, St. Quentin, Aisne, Rheims, Meuse and was in the Meuse area at the Armistice.

Allied Intelligence rated the 50th Infantry Division as “first class”. Immediately after the battle of the Aisne, it commander, Maj. Fritsch was awarded the Pour le Mérite.

I found a nice 1916 DWM in a small gun store, gave them an offer and it was accepted. I either sold it or traded it, which I have regretted to this day.

 

[PALADIN85020]

(Click for larger view)

This is a complete rig for a 1936 Mauser Luger. It's significantly the last version of the Luger where many of the smaller parts were "strawed" or gold-colored through heat treatment. The holster is dated 1936 as well as the gun itself.

John

 

[old tanker]

I only have two. One appears to be an East German VoPo gun, force matched numbers with the black plastic "bullseye" grips. How it came to be in West Germany in the mid-Seventies is unclear.

The other is a 1929 Swiss Luger from a batch recently released. It's nice to shoot, but you do not want the brass to escape. .30 Luger is not a regular stock item at the LGS. The import marks are under the lanyard loop and about as discreetly done as any I have seen.

 

[boykinlp]

I only have two. One appears to be an East German VoPo gun, force matched numbers with the black plastic "bullseye" grips. How it came to be in West Germany in the mid-Seventies is unclear.

The other is a 1929 Swiss Luger from a batch recently released. It's nice to shoot, but you do not want the brass to escape. .30 Luger is not a regular stock item at the LGS. The import marks are under the lanyard loop and about as discreetly done as any I have seen.

I have seen a few, and really like the Swiss Cross on the Lugers.
Larry

 

[bdGreen]

Have owned this one for over thirty plus years.

Picked it up at a Dallas Market Hall gun show.

Had assistance from my resident Luger expert.

Tore it down right there on the spot to examine it.

Took it home. Ha.

It has a 1916 chamber date. All numbers matching down to the firing pin. Except the magazine.

enjoy,

bdGreen

Tap on image to enlarge.

 

[bdGreen]

My beautiful Mauser Banner with the 1940 Chamber date and Haenel Schmeisser magazine.

Same situation as my Artillery. I brought my Luger expert to the Dallas Market Hall show, and again, took it completely down to the firing pin to verify the serial numbers match.

It was all good.

enjoy,

bdGreen

Tap on image to enlarge.

 

[Golddollar]

OK, everybody, please don't laugh too hard. I used to have a beautiful blued pre-war Luger with matching numbers except for the magazine but I had to sell it when I lost my job.

It's chromed and has a MecGar magazine, but the numbers match. It has the Mauser code on the toggle and "41" on the breech. It shoots pretty well. I took it to an indoor range and one of the range officers asked if he could shoot it. I loaded it up for him and let him shoot it. He really enjoyed getting to shoot an old classic.

I'm sure the collectors will gag, but I got a shooter. Hopefully my old Luger has found a nice home in a collector's safe.

 

[Bill Bates]

Here is my, 1913 chamber dated, DWM P-08. When I bought it years ago it came with a WWII vintage holster and two FXO WWII vintage magazines.

 

[cmansguns]

You have a very nice Black Widow WWII Luger

Indeed when I saw the original post this morning I had to look up mine that I sold in 2016 for $2000. I saw the last two digits of your gun, 77, and said wait a minute...is that the one I sold?

Nope...mine was a few months later. The Collector designation "Black Widow" covered those Lugers made for only a short time in early WWII. One thing you might want to do to further your research is to pull the grips, and compare the backside of each to the photos of mine (in second post...can only post 5 per post). There were several types of backside rib construction (mine were officially Type 6).

The mags were also unique to the Black Widow and yours have the original marks for correct manufacture. Along with your other nice accessories I would have to say your package is clearly in the $2,500 to $3,000 area, maybe more to those serious Collectors.

One of the best websites for all things Luger is Jan Still's Axis Powers website. If you join that Forum, there was a man on that site who was a Luger grip expert (Dave Trout). I haven't been active over there since I sold my Mil-surps and went into S&W's, but those folks are just as friendly and knowledgeable as the folks right here.

Thanks for the post 38SuperMan, those Lugers are getting scarcer every day. I don't really miss mine, but it was a fun time for research and collecting WWII weapons and accessories.

 

[cmansguns]

second post Luger grips and write-up

As promised some pics of Luger byf (Mauser) grips (Type 6) and my former write-up when sold.

 

[.38SuperMan]

Indeed when I saw the original post this morning I had to look up mine that I sold in 2016 for $2000. I saw the last two digits of your gun, 77, and said wait a minute...is that the one I sold?

Nope...mine was a few months later. The Collector designation "Black Widow" covered those Lugers made for only a short time in early WWII. One thing you might want to do to further your research is to pull the grips, and compare the backside of each to the photos of mine (in second post...can only post 5 per post). There were several types of backside rib construction (mine were officially Type 6).

The mags were also unique to the Black Widow and yours have the original marks for correct manufacture. Along with your other nice accessories I would have to say your package is clearly in the $2,500 to $3,000 area, maybe more to those serious Collectors.

One of the best websites for all things Luger is Jan Still's Axis Powers website. If you join that Forum, there was a man on that site who was a Luger grip expert (Dave Trout). I haven't been active over there since I sold my Mil-surps and went into S&W's, but those folks are just as friendly and knowledgeable as the folks right here.

Thanks for the post 38SuperMan, those Lugers are getting scarcer every day. I don't really miss mine, but it was a fun time for research and collecting WWII weapons and accessories.

Thanks for your post! I read a little about the “Black Widow” but thought it was a generic term more than a specific series of guns. I’ve had it totally apart to check serial numbers, all matching, and will have to pull the grips again today and post images.

I’ll post a photo today and join the site. Thanks again for the info.

Don

 

[.38SuperMan]

Thanks for posting the back shots of your grips. It does appear my grips are the type 6 as well.

Since my gun is marked 41 and the serial number is 3227a I’m assuming this was the 3227th produced. Would that be correct?

Don

 

[Rick Sanborn]

I take it you know your way to the Kittery Trading Post, what with Rileys being gone. And are likely single .....

I used to go to KTP many years ago and it was always a treat. Then they tried to become a Cabelas and lost the character that made them a “go to” place for me. I haven’t been there for at least ten years now. When I buy stuff its mainly Gunbroker or Forums like this one. I am married, four kids, all grown and have long gotten on with their lives. Regarding Lugers, I think my 1902 carbine is the top dog of my group.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Picked up a nice DWM Double Date Luger a few years back for my WWII collection. It's dated 1918 and 1920. She runs great for a lady her age. Very happy with the pick up even though she wasn't cheap!

 

[cmansguns]

don't get tied up with serial no dating

Thanks for posting the back shots of your grips. It does appear my grips are the type 6 as well.

Since my gun is marked 41 and the serial number is 3227a I’m assuming this was the 3227th produced. Would that be correct?

Don

Hello Don,
I am not a Luger expert by any means but back around 2003 there was a lot if interest in serial numbers for the so-called "Black Widow" Lugers. The first thing to realize is that the term "Black Widow" was the marketing invention of a man in Arizona who sold Lugers. Ralph Shatuck was the man and the dang term stuck over the years, mostly by USA Collectors. Even renowned auction houses like Simpson Ltd began to "use it" in thier adds, and still do.

Most serious Luger collectors of days gone by (20-30 years ago) disdained the cheap looking black plastic grips, much like we S&W and Colt collectors disdain the Franzite grips.

But the rumors of only issuing the Black Widow Lugers to the SS are still around today.....all debunked as untrue marketing ploys (unfortunately that worked on unsuspecting new buyers)!

Mauser Werks was given the wartime code of byf and their production was approx. 10,000 per month in 1940,41 and into 42. The block letters (lower case font) indicated not exactly a particular month, but more a "block" of 10000. Mauser produced approx 10,000 Lugers in January 1941, however the black plastic (bakelite) wasn't approved until June of 1941 and even the experts cannot agree to exactly what serial numbers and blocks would have contained only the black grips and magazines.

The most informative book on these (and other wartime Lugers) is Jan C. Still book Third Reich Lugers. I sold mine years ago, but maybe you can still find it on the Amazing site.

The key to your grips being genuine (and there are MANY, MANY fakes out there) is usually the threaded hole on the backside. The main accepted theory of validity is that the hole was there to release the grip from the mold, and it is English Whitworth thread, because the Mauser machinery was English for automated screw manufacturing in those pre-war II days. Jan Still I believe passed away some years ago but I think that a man (Ed Tinker) who is a noted authority on Lugers picked the website. The man I previously mentioned (Dave Trout) kept a database of genuine, validated by him, black resin (bakelite) grips and the serial number and block number Lugers they were issued on.

The true grips are also shiny around the borders of the checkering (like yours in the pictures you posted).

I think you do have a very nice original, and if you check at Simpson Ltd their current auctions have "black widow" listed at $3250, $3495, $4200, $5000, $5500, $6000...many of which are marked sold. The one listing at $1600 is noted as reblued, and has fake (repro) black plastic grips.

If you have no import marks anywhere on your gun, and can get the grips and FXO magazine validated yours is most likely in that high money group somewhere should you ever need, or want to sell.

Again.......I'm no expert at all.....most of my research was done years ago via Jan Still and Ed Tinker books and the aforementioned Forum.

Good luck, you have a real nice piece of history in your hands.

 

[.38SuperMan]

Hello Don,
I am not a Luger expert by any means but back around 2003 there was a lot if interest in serial numbers for the so-called "Black Widow" Lugers. The first thing to realize is that the term "Black Widow" was the marketing invention of a man in Arizona who sold Lugers. Ralph Shatuck was the man and the dang term stuck over the years, mostly by USA Collectors. Even renowned auction houses like Simpson Ltd began to "use it" in thier adds, and still do.

Most serious Luger collectors of days gone by (20-30 years ago) disdained the cheap looking black plastic grips, much like we S&W and Colt collectors disdain the Franzite grips.

But the rumors of only issuing the Black Widow Lugers to the SS are still around today.....all debunked as untrue marketing ploys (unfortunately that worked on unsuspecting new buyers)!

Mauser Werks was given the wartime code of byf and their production was approx. 10,000 per month in 1940,41 and into 42. The block letters (lower case font) indicated not exactly a particular month, but more a "block" of 10000. Mauser produced approx 10,000 Lugers in January 1941, however the black plastic (bakelite) wasn't approved until June of 1941 and even the experts cannot agree to exactly what serial numbers and blocks would have contained only the black grips and magazines.

The most informative book on these (and other wartime Lugers) is Jan C. Still book Third Reich Lugers. I sold mine years ago, but maybe you can still find it on the Amazing site.

The key to your grips being genuine (and there are MANY, MANY fakes out there) is usually the threaded hole on the backside. The main accepted theory of validity is that the hole was there to release the grip from the mold, and it is English Whitworth thread, because the Mauser machinery was English for automated screw manufacturing in those pre-war II days. Jan Still I believe passed away some years ago but I think that a man (Ed Tinker) who is a noted authority on Lugers picked the website. The man I previously mentioned (Dave Trout) kept a database of genuine, validated by him, black resin (bakelite) grips and the serial number and block number Lugers they were issued on.

The true grips are also shiny around the borders of the checkering (like yours in the pictures you posted).

I think you do have a very nice original, and if you check at Simpson Ltd their current auctions have "black widow" listed at $3250, $3495, $4200, $5000, $5500, $6000...many of which are marked sold. The one listing at $1600 is noted as reblued, and has fake (repro) black plastic grips.

If you have no import marks anywhere on your gun, and can get the grips and FXO magazine validated yours is most likely in that high money group somewhere should you ever need, or want to sell.

Again.......I'm no expert at all.....most of my research was done years ago via Jan Still and Ed Tinker books and the aforementioned Forum.

Good luck, you have a real nice piece of history in your hands.

Thanks for all the information.

Until the day I posted the thread I wasn’t even aware of the “Black Widow” and had no idea there was any special value to the gun my wife bought for my birthday gift.

I’ll search for the book you mentioned and continue to research it. This is one of those things I’d never part with because it was a gift for my first birthday after we got married plus knowing this it’s just cool owning it.

Once again I’ve proven “Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.”

Your help is greatly appreciated!

Don

 

[bc1023]

Mauser Sport Parabellum

One of less than 100 made