Light Trigger Pull Liability

[EdJG]

I was thinking of installing the Apex Trigger Kit, but after reading this post in the S&W Concealed Carry Forum I've become a bit hesitant. I know the modification says the trigger pull will be "approximately" 5.5 lbs, but his comment "...the collective law enforcement experience in countless such cases speaks to the wisdom of keeping “factory ‘duty spec’ trigger pulls” on any firearm one is likely to use for self-defense purposes."

Just thought I'd bring the issue up so everyone can make an informed decision on modifying their trigger.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/419191-facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html

 

[Whitwabit]

Both of my carry guns and my bug are factory stock .. Beretta PX-4 and S&W 40 Compact are both DA/SA no safety .. while my bug is a Sig P238which is carried cocked and locked is SA and has a safety ..

Two of them after being broken in 800 or more rounds through them have between 6 1/2 pound and 8 1/2 pound trigger pulls in DA and 4 to 5pound trigger pulls in SA .. only have 200 rounds through my p238 as I bought it in January ..

For conceal carry I don't need anything lighter and I am accurate with them as they are .. I don't see a need to reduce the trigger pull !!

I have a range toy with just under a 3 pound trigger and its a joy to shoot ON THE RANGE but would never carry it !!

But some DA pulls are 10 pounds or more I have one .. and can see people reducing them to become more accurate with the weapon !!

 

[bigwheelzip]

The deputy who taught my CC class recommended against any modification from stock. The advice seemed more geared to increased liability if you accidentally shot someone other than your intended target.

 

[Comrad]

I'm going out on a limb here but my instincts tell me that if in the very remote possibility I would have to pull the trigger on any of my guns in a defense situation the fight or flight adrenaline would make the trigger pull seem effortless.

 

[WR Moore]

My 2006 edition M&P is the only stock pistol I own. It simply didn't need anything for defensive purposes.

If you absolutely HAVE (psychogically) to do something to your trigger, the best suggestion would be to send it to the S&W Performance Center and have them do a trigger job. Won't be as cheap as do-it-yourself, but it's a whole lot more defensible. The price difference won't buy an hours worth of time from a first rate attorney in most areas.

Most instructors will tell you that the best monetary investment you can make to improve your perforance isn't widgets for your firearm, it's practice ammo.

 

[McE]

Heavy trigger pulls are the real liability.

 

[Philadelphia Patriot]

In a self defense shooting, it all comes down to if the shooting was justified or not. You will not be found guilty if the shooting was deemed justified but you had a 3 lbs trigger. "Your Honor, the defendant may have shot at a robber who held him at knife point, but the defendant's firearm had a 3 lbs trigger pull. Therefore the defendant shall be found guilty!" ....Yeah, not going to happen.

 

[Bozz10mm]

I have factory stock pistols with a 5 lb. pull and I have modified other pistols down to a 5 lb. pull. What's the difference?

 

[dougb1946]

The BGs attorney may claim you didn't mean to shoot, but the light trigger caused a negligent discharge. The defense against that is to strongly affirm you were in fear for your life and deliberately shot the BG until he stopped being a threat. 6 or 7 times.

 

[Philadelphia Patriot]

You're more likely to get painted in a negative light for carrying an extra magazine or speedloader than having a lighter trigger pull. "Your Honor, the defendant was out that day with the mindsight of killing as many people as possible. He had extra ammo! This means after shooting people, he would have had to stop, empty his gun, reload his gun, and continue shooting more people. The defendant left his house that day with the intentions of being a suburban Rambo!"

If you're comfortable carrying a lighter trigger, then carry a lighter trigger. Just follow ALL rules of gun safety and train, train, TRAIN!

Edit to add: I personally see nothing wrong with carrying extra mags, speedloaders, or loose ammo.

 

[hexnut]

You're more likely to get painted in a negative light for carrying an extra magazine or speedloader than having a lighter trigger pull. "Your Honor, the defendant was out that day with the mindsight of killing as many people as possible. He had extra ammo! This means after shooting people, he would have had to stop, empty his gun, reload his gun, and continue shooting more people. The defendant left his house that day with the intentions of being a suburban Rambo!"

None of that will happen in a justified shooting. At least around here anyway.

 

[RobzGuns]

There's a 'Sticky' about this in the Concealed Carry Sub-Forum.
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed you to it before now.

Facts About "Light Trigger Pull Liability"

Of course, there are many that disagree/dislike Ayoob.

 

[EdJG]

There's a 'Sticky' about this in the Concealed Carry Sub-Forum.
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed you to it before now.

Facts About "Light Trigger Pull Liability"

Of course, there are many that disagree/dislike Ayoob.

There's a link to it in my original post. It's what got me thinking about the issue.

 

[Philadelphia Patriot]

None of that will happen in a justified shooting. At least around here anyway.

That's my point. It all comes down to if the shooting was justified or not. There are many things that possibly could make you look bad, but when push comes to shove it all hinges on whether the shooting was justifiable.

 

[Mister X]

I was thinking of installing the Apex Trigger Kit, but after reading this post in the S&W Concealed Carry Forum I've become a bit hesitant. I know the modification says the trigger pull will be "approximately" 5.5 lbs, but his comment "...the collective law enforcement experience in countless such cases speaks to the wisdom of keeping “factory ‘duty spec’ trigger pulls” on any firearm one is likely to use for self-defense purposes."

Just thought I'd bring the issue up so everyone can make an informed decision on modifying their trigger.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/419191-facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html

I think it prudent to take heed of Massad Ayoob's words. I know I do.

FWIW, Mas usually goes a different direction from most and actually increases the trigger pull weight of his Glocks intended for carry/defensive purposes by installing NY triggers.

A heavier trigger pull may not make for an ideal range, target, competition or perhaps for some proactive/offensive LE/Military type applications, but I do think they make sense from a certain perspective for concealed carry, close-quarter civilian reactive/defensive scenarios, threat management and reducing the risk of unintentional discharges. They are still lighter and shorter than the trigger pull on a DAO S&W revolver and I don't see issues or concerns with them being too heavy.

Trigger pull weight is relative and subjective with most people feeling that a stock 5.5# trigger is just fine in regards to these concerns and I don't necessarily think they are wrong, but I also understand the viewpoint that they are a little on the light side or simply too light for a carry/personal defense weapon.

Just my personal opinion, YMMV

 

[TacticalReload]

Almost every single time I see anything referring to liability and trigger pull weight or modification, it always either comes directly from or is some 6-degrees-of-separation from Ayoob. I've even seen where it is suggested that someone shouldn't put a factory "-" connector into an otherwise box stock Glock when the owner said he was an elderly man with a physical condition that makes him shoot the "-" connector guns better than the "." connector guns.

IANAL and I don't have any courtroom experience on the matter, but my opinion is that anything that makes it easier for you to hit what you're aiming at (and not hit what you're not aiming at) while maintaining safety is acceptable in my book. In the end, though, it's up to you as to what amount of risk you are willing to take on since only you will have to deal with the consequences. The same can be said for just pulling the trigger on any firearm (or even carrying or owning a gun in the first place).

Maybe give this vid a view. He claims to have spoken directly to attorneys about the matter:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp0on2RA-e8[/ame]

 

[hexnut]

If its not a justified shoot Don't pull the trigger. if it is a justified shoot it doesn't matter what trigger you pull. End of story. Of course we have the castle doctrine and no duty to retreat here. A person breaks into your house he doesn't have to be armed for a justified shoot. All you have to be is in fear for your life. What trigger is on your gun is the last thing they will be worrying about. Of course if you live in one of the not so free states, your mileage could vary.

 

[WR Moore]

About the magazine/speedloader thingie....BS! LLEA carry extra ammo, it's a really good idea. What you don't see them carry is firearms with triggers at less than factory specification.

There are other folks on this site who have had to carry what's issued and learned to deal with the factory trigger. Barring physical issues like RA, you can too. All it requires is practice.

If I read words to the effect of "a good shoot is a good shoot and the details don't matter" again I'm gonna barf. You can be sued for anything. Also, you don't need to be handing plaintiffs counsel any more issues to raise and your counsel any more to potentially deal with.

 

[hexnut]

About the magazine/speedloader thingie....BS! LLEA carry extra ammo, it's a really good idea. What you don't see them carry is firearms with triggers at less than factory specification.

There are other folks on this site who have had to carry what's issued and learned to deal with the factory trigger. Barring physical issues like RA, you can too. All it requires is practice.

If I read words to the effect of "a good shoot is a good shoot and the details don't matter" again I'm gonna barf. You can be sued for anything. Also, you don't need to be handing plaintiffs counsel any more issues to raise and your counsel any more to potentially deal with.

Tennessee law has us covered on that one. Glad I live in one of the free states.

Tennessee has a self-defense law based on the castle doctrine. Enacted in 2007, the law does not require a duty to retreat. It extends the right for persons to defend themselves from attacks by using physical or deadly force in any place they have a legal right to be. The law provides civil immunity for persons using physical or deadly force to protect themselves from an attacker.

 

[WR Moore]

I have factory stock pistols with a 5 lb. pull and I have modified other pistols down to a 5 lb. pull. What's the difference?

Two potential differences: 1. What are the factory trigger specifications for the specific makes & models? 2. Are you a certified armorer for that make & model or a trained gunsmith?

If you're still within spec on point 1, probably shouldn't be an issue. However, the problem raised by point 2, is that if you're not an authorized/trained professional, you can be painted, at best, as some dolt who thinks they know better than the folks who built it.

The end use also enters into it. Both Glock & Colt build/built guns for target use with triggers lighter than those they used for defensive/duty guns.