Lightest Safe 38-SPCL. Charge?

[RWJ]

Here's one.....

I had this one that I posted from a thread about 2 years ago here in the Forum. I'm not near my books right now, so see if someone can verify it's correct. I will try to confirm later today, when I get to the bookshelf.


Lyman 45th edition Reloading Handbook for the #358101 75gr bullet.
Powder Start/grs. FPS Max/grs. FPS
Bullseye 2.0 607 3.0 788
Unique 3.0 577 5.0 842
SR7625 3.0 469 4.0 570

 

[snubbiefan]

Stu......as far as I am concerned.....you got right on down to the meat in this coconut. Shawn....that was the "dirty word" I was concerned about.....detonation.....blowing-up, or bulging a cylinder.

I'll never load below 1.8 grains of Bullseye or 2-grains of RD in a 38-special anyway. I do know that around 2-grains of either under a light slug feels (and sounds) very close to 22LR shot from an Airlite when fired from a 640, 649 or 60 and the trigger is much better. I mark the bases of these light loads with a green felt-tip pen so I don't accidentally put them in my 4 and 6-inch barrel guns, even though I think they would leave the muzzle. I never load these on a progressive set-up....strictly by hand with measured charges. I know some folks say that is the easiest way to double-charge one and some don't. I don't buy into that if you're careful in hand-charging. Besides, like what has already been mentioned....a double charge of either is still very safe and all it may do is scare the pants off the shooter.

I know there are recommendations here against loading below factory published specs, but my question has been answered. We're talking killing coffee-cans at 15-20 feet here folks....not competition shooting.

 

[stu1ritter]

Considering I own 3 .38 Specials and the longest barrel is 2.5", guess I'm safe.
AND I don't give my handloads to ANYONE, EVER.

Stu

 

[ArchAngelCD]

All this is good stuff folks and I wasn't born yesterday. Have been reloading for quite some time, but rather casually in just a couple of calibers. I know the dangers of down-loading and that's why I wanted some 2nd. and 3rd. opinions. I'd never try this in a long-barrel gun.

I think the 38-special makes a great "getting acquainted" gun for the new shooters in my family. Why not a 22....good question. Most small (J-Frame style) 22 revolvers have atrocious trigger-pulls. I have tamed a 317 for my wife with some spring changes, but the J-Frame center fire triggers are so much better right out of the box and the all steel guns lessen the felt recoil as well. As long as we can still get primers and powder and I cast my own slugs....I can shoot 38-special cheaper than I can 22LR....during these panic periods.

You said thses loads were for new shooters but you never said anything about teaching on a snub nose revolver. You can do as you please but I for one would not teach a new shooter with a snub nose revolver. I was not suggestion you teach anyone to shoot using a M317. I was thinking more in the lines of M17 or a M18 or something similar from other companies? Sorry, I didn't mean to bother you.

 

[k53]

I think the 38-special makes a great "getting acquainted" gun for the new shooters in my family. Why not a 22....good question. Most small (J-Frame style) 22 revolvers have atrocious trigger-pulls. I have tamed a 317 for my wife with some spring changes, but the J-Frame center fire triggers are so much better right out of the box and the all steel guns lessen the felt recoil as well. As long as we can still get primers and powder and I cast my own slugs....I can shoot 38-special cheaper than I can 22LR....during these panic periods.

Well Ive never shot one of the newer smiths, nor a J frame... but I tell you every K frame 22 ive shot have had wonderfull triggers!! My K53 is by far the best trigger Ive ever felt!! That right there is a nice gun to train. Popped in the 22lr cyl, and tought my sister to shoot with it. A little weight to it and started with 22 shorts.. 6" bbl makes it easy to aim. Moved up to 148gr Lyman 358395 WC ahead of 3.0gr of BE in a 4" M19 for a soft load with just a touch extra recoil. realy a nice load to train with.

 

[Ceapea]

My Lyman 45th lists 2.0gr B.E. (starting load) for several lead, 38 cal. bullets...75gr, 112gr, 121gr, 141gr, 150gr, 158gr and even the 195gr cast bullet. All from a 6" S&W Model 14.
For PPC, I use 2.3gr B.E. under a 148gr DEWC or HBWC.
Some guys use 2.3gr of TiteGroup and some use WST or 231, I do not know how much powder for those, though. In 3 years of shooting PPC, no bullets stuck in any barrels (4" or 6") due to light charge. One guy did load a bunch that didn't get any powder (????) once though. Now, he stuck some bullets!
I find 2.6gr B.E. to be very pleasant/easy shooting and extremely accurate with 158gr LSWC's. This is my load that I let new shooters shoot when starting out.

 

[snubbiefan]

I know the larger frame guns in 22 are much easier to shoot. I have a basket full...totally agree and the wife and grand-kids do very well with them, even a 686. BUT....my wife can't get a 617 in her purse....

I think if you are going to carry concealed, it has to be a smallish semi-auto or a J-Frame sized pistol. I do not need to explain to you that some people will scare the pants off you watching them trying to rack, operate and make-safe a semi-auto. A revolver with a trigger-bar is just about as safe as you can possibly get. I think we also have to agree that the J-Frame family of pistols bring along more muzzle-blast and felt recoil. That's more-or-less what this was all about....bringing them down to a small frame pistol and building them back-up to wadcutters or other commercial ammo in a J-Frame.

 

[stu1ritter]

Teaching on a snub nose is actually quite worthwhile. It forces concentration on the sight picture (what there is of it) during the learning experience. I also have them starting out shooting single action, the double action part comes after they learn the basics of shots on target by sights, squeeze, grip. They have already managed to keep shots in the black with the .22 so the transition isn't all that difficult. Naturally we are not talking about shooting at 50 yards here. I start them out quite close and slowly move the target out as they get better and better. Some of these women turn out to be quite good shots. I also have them read the complete Army AMU manual before we even start, that's the course book. I'm just an old bullseye shooter who likes to pass on the skill set to others and have devised my own way of doing it. I've been using the reduced .38 loading for years and years now. The triggers on all of my J's have been well gone through and are quite smooth on the double action pull, not lighter per se but smooth and dependable. If any of these folks do decide to carry they will more than likely carry a J. As others have said, racking a slide isn't easy and there is nothing safer in a purse than a J without a reduced load :~)
Stu

 

[Treeman]

.75 grains(yes 3/4ths of a grain) of Bullseye will reliably spit wadcutters out of a .38 snub......at about 195fps. Red dot is a bit harder to meter in such tiny quantities but since it is actually a very slightly "faster" powder than BE it should also work. The only danger with tiny charges of "fast" pistol powders is a squib sticking a bullet in the bore.

 

[Warren Sear]

I hate to bring up "issues," but I seem to recall issues with "detonations" with extremely light charges of Bullseye. Any of you youngsters ever hear of those?

I have heard of that many times, but it never happened. A reduced charge in a 38 WILL NEVER EVER detonate, blow up, or damage a gun in any way. Ever.

I wish this old load of horse dumplings would go away already.

 

[Warren Sear]

My 1981 edition of the NRA handloading manual has a section in it named "Minimum Loads In Handguns; development and use of low-power .38 Spl. loads". I suppose I would get gigged if I posted the full article here, but anyone who wants a copy can send me a PM.

The author described his load development methods in detail. He used a 2" barreled S&W Chief's Special, 146 grain wadcutter bullets, and Bullseye powder. He found a load of .55 grains of powder reliably expelled all bullets from his gun's barrel, but he increased the charge to .75 grains as a margin of safety. This load gave a muzzle velocity of 195 fps.

The author said not to use this load in 6" guns. For a gun with a barrel of that length, he listed 1.25 grains of Bullseye, which gave a muzzle velocity of 272 fps.

Finally, he advised that these loads may not work properly in other .38 caliber revolvers, but the methods he provided are universally applicable, regardless of caliber.

So, minimal loads are safe.

 

[snubbiefan]

As far as I am concerned.....I have the final word on this (as in all the information I need). I'll never load below 1.8-2 grains of BE or RD anyway and I won't lose any sleep over it.

Thanks to all.

 

[Rule3]

As far as I am concerned.....I have the final word on this (as in all the information I need). I'll never load below 1.8-2 grains of BE or RD anyway and I won't lose any sleep over it.

Thanks to all.

Yes, the above is true, You have the final word. You asked for opinions, but still had your mind set on doing what you wanted anyway so Why ask???

 

[snubbiefan]

What the blue he!! is that all about?

I made my mind up AFTER I had read enough post from other people (including you) that gave their opinions, or had something to add to the discussion.

Have a nice day!

 

[Rule3]

What the blue he!! is that all about?

I made my mind up AFTER I had read enough post from other people (including you) that gave their opinions, or had something to add to the discussion.

Have a nice day!

It means exactly what it says.
You asked for suggestions which were not what you load or intend to load. We gave our opinions and you will do what ever you do, That's all.

The powder companies and bullet manufacturers (manuals) spend millions on research and development to devolve safe, accurate and efficient load data. You chose to not use that data, so as you say, you have the final word.

You have a nice day also and may the odds be forever in your favor

 

[ruffbird]

The danger in down/light loading is the bullet may not have enough force to exit the barrel. If another round is fired...ruined barrel or something bad that we don't want to happen...hence starting loads.
My old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (3rd edition) does not have 110 gr cast listed but for the 120 gr. the starting loads are:
Bullseye.....2.8 grains
Red Dot.....3.3 grains
Don't go any lower. When I started loading I loaded some light ones, below minimum, and most shot OK except for some reason, one didn't make it out the end of the barrel...I don't know why , but I stopped and looked at the gun. Opened it and No light was coming through the barrel...God was looking after me that day and I learned why the starting loads are in the books. Be careful with light loads.

Gary

Agree with the above 100%

 

[Delos]

Light Load revolver explosions? Rumor? History?

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone.

I once read that originally 38 bullets were actually .38 when you put the micrometer on them. They would squeeze down 3 thousandths when fired in the .357 grove diameter barrel. (oops, another 3 thousandths would be .36)

Maybe that was way back when they fired soft lead. What is the fattest modern lead/tin 38 anyone has measured with a micrometer. Shoot that with a reduced load in a revolver with a fairly tight flash gap.

And that business of pointing the gun downward and the (?) 2 grains of bulls eye powder moves to the front of the big old 38 special shell and explodes front to back first.

And no one has mentioned reduced loads using jacketed bullets.

We should be more scientific here. Somebody needs to donate a gun for us to blow up.

Maybe it was a rumor from Black Powder days. Must be some 100 year old person around that remembers the old black powder guns using crimped shells. I bet we could blow up an old .44 rimfire balloon case revolver with a reduced black powder load. (Without firing a second shot behind one stuck in the barrel)

 

[Warren Sear]

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone.

I once read that originally 38 bullets were actually .38 when you put the micrometer on them. They would squeeze down 3 thousandths when fired in the .357 grove diameter barrel. (oops, another 3 thousandths would be .36)...

...that business of pointing the gun downward and the (?) 2 grains of bulls eye powder moves to the front of the big old 38 special shell and explodes front to back first.

And no one has mentioned reduced loads using jacketed bullets...

You were mis-informed.

Also, no one mentioned reduced loads with jacketed bullets, because only a complete idiot would even consider doing that.

 

[Rpg]

I recall reading discussions of 'detonation' occurring with light loads of Bullseye ( - 3 gr.) in 38 special. The theory was that in the 38 case - designed for black powder- very light loads of Bullseye would flash and detonate on occasion.

I don't know if this theory was ever substantiated.

 

[Warren Sear]

It never happened.

In an issue of the American Rifleman some time in the early 1980's this was thoroughly investigated. The bottom line was that even if you could get "detonation" (you can't) there is simply not enough energy in 3 or so grains of Bullseye to blow up a revolver's cylinder. All revolvers blown up due to supposed charges of 2.5 to 3 grains of powder, were in reality from negligent loading of multiple charges, or from firing one of these overcharged loads while bullets or jackets left in the bore from a previous defective round were lodged in the barrel, or a combination of these factors.

A low charge of powder, in and of itself, WILL NOT DAMAGE YOUR REVOLVER.

Oh, and there is no such thing as "detonation" occurring in a 38 Special, or similar, cartridge; probably not in any rifle caliber either.