Listed COL for 45ACP 200gr LSWC seems too short

[rhodesengr]

I've been loading 45ACP with ZERO 230gr JHP bullets but wanted to try 200gr LSWC. I looked up the loads for AA#5 and it calls for a COL of 1.190 which seems insanely short. That will put the case mouth above the bullet shoulder. Is that really the way it's supposed to be? Or maybe the bullet used in the listed load has a longer base section? The COL of 1.190 is shown on both the Hodgdon website and Western Powder V8 (shown below). The loads I am referring to are for the LC 200gr SWC.

Same bullet (LC LSWC) with Silhouette is listed with a COL of 1.267. Seems like a huge difference for the same bullet. Seems like an odd coincidence the the numbers for the two powders 1.190 and 1.267 are also the SAMMI max and min COL's.

I was making my 230gr JHP at 1.210

The LSWC bullets I have are from Rim Rock. At 1.253 (photo below), there is still some lead above case. I did some plunk testing and the 1.253 COL plunked OK but seemed to have a little resistance to spinning. I've done some searching and found some other threads about this. I settled on 1.235 which still leaves some lead above the mouth but 1.190? Is that real?

 

[Rpg]

Your photo looks just like my 200 gr swc hand loads in terms of the amount of lead visible above the case mouth.

I load only H&G 68 I cast myself for my 200gr swc bullets. I’m assuming your bullets are a takeoff of the H&G68 so comparison between your bullet and mine is permissible.

 

[rockquarry]

I load the H&G #68 200 grain or a clone to 1.24" and have for years. Feeds reliably, works well.

 

[colt_saa]

I also load the H&G #68 200 grain lead SWC

If I ever measured the COAL it was 3+ decades ago and my memory is not that good

I just seat them pretty much like yours looks. Though I do taper crimp the round. Yours looks like there is still a bit of a bell to the case mouth

The H&G #68 200 grain lead SWC could be order as a flat base or as a bevel base design. I cast the bevel base and it only needs a tiny bell to the case mouth to be able to seat properly

Mine have functioned great loaded this way since the 70s

 

[bigboredad]

1.24 is what I load for my 1911s. However I have had some 1911s that needed 1.190. If I have a barrel like that nowadays it gets fixed or it goes on down the road


Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

 

[rhodesengr]

This is my product
.45 ACP 200 gr. SWC per 700
I can't tell if they are shaped like H&G #68. I can email RR and ask them.

The photo was probably before I ran it through the crimp stage. It wouldn't feed at all without the taper-crimp. I tried it just to see.

I am using a Dillon SDB. When I go to set up from a different bullet, I adjust stage #3 (seat) first (without powder or primer) and I don't do stage 4 (crimp) until I have the length right. I just keep moving back to stage 3 until I have the length where I want. I find that the crimp does reduce the COL a few mil.

 

[WR Moore]

There is supposed to be a slight amount of shoulder above the case mouth. How much kinda depends upon the bullet design. Hornady used to make a jacketed 200 gr SWC and that had to be real close to their listed OAL to feed properly.

Back in the day (last century), reaming the leade to produce a "wadcutter throat" was often done to make sure the shoulder didn't hit the rifling and cause a failure to go into battery.

IIRC, I'm seating the Berry 200 gr plated SWC at 1.235 in for use in a Bar-Sto barrel. Haven't messed with the leade.

 

[Rpg]

Your bullets look very much like the H&G #68.

That’s not surprising: H&G #68 is one of the most popular and best performing.45 bullets ever produced. H&G is out of business but most bullet manufacturers make a copy of the H&G 68: some actually use H&G molds. Yours looks like a very serviceable copy of the #68.

 

[rhodesengr]

The bullets from RR are bevel base. Here are the dimensions.
Bullet full length: .653"
Base to shoulder: .326"

Could you guys with HG 68's please compare to your dimensions? I don't see a drawing for the HG 68 online.

Edit: I did find some drawings. Seems like base to top of shoulder should be .325 so that is the same as the RR bullets but the total length for HG68 is .630. The RR bullet are about 20mil longer. The RR website list the OAL as .639 but mine measure somewhat longer.

 

[stansdds]

My experience with this style of bullet is seated to somewhere from 1.235" to 1.250" OAL. As WR Moore stated in post number 7, OAL may need to be adjusted so as to feed reliably and chamber in your pistol.

 

[Model19man]

My experience with this style of bullet is seated to somewhere from 1.235" to 1.250" OAL. As WR Moore stated in post number 7, OAL may need to be adjusted so as to feed reliably and chamber in your pistol.

Agree, this is the most important aspect. Length is more than minimum and enough to ensure good feeding.

 

[243winxb]

Your photo, perfect. Bullet ogive just above the case mouth.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Just a query: are "published OALs" not typically the MINIMUM suggested length of a cartridge stated to indicate/approximate(?) available case volume with the seated bullet as far as pressure is concerned? That seatng LONGER than that dimension (usually to facilitate loading in a semi-automatic from a magazine) won't increase pressure?

Being "too long" just means they won't fit in the magazine, or feed reliably, or won't chamber.

With revolvers the length of the cylinder typically is the determining limit of just how long the bullet can be, hence the oft quoted "just load 'em at the crimp groove" (if they'll fit?)...

Cheers!

 

[randyp]

The Bullseye L ammunition discussion forum on reloading a 185 or 200 grain SWC is to seat the bullet ogive approximately 1/16 of an inch above the case mouth with a taper crimp applied. They have a sticky listed which lists the pet loads of top shooters.

 

[mtgianni]

This is my product
.45 ACP 200 gr. SWC per 700
I can't tell if they are shaped like H&G #68. I can email RR and ask them.

The photo was probably before I ran it through the crimp stage. It wouldn't feed at all without the taper-crimp. I tried it just to see.

I am using a Dillon SDB. When I go to set up from a different bullet, I adjust stage #3 (seat) first (without powder or primer) and I don't do stage 4 (crimp) until I have the length right. I just keep moving back to stage 3 until I have the length where I want. I find that the crimp does reduce the COL a few mil.

In the pictures shown the #68 H&G has a shorter nose and a wider angle on the taper than the Rim Rock bullet. It is very close and I would be OK with using the longer data assuming it feeds well.

 

[rhodesengr]

Just a query: are "published OALs" not typically the MINIMUM suggested length of a cartridge stated to indicate/approximate(?) available case volume with the seated bullet as far as pressure is concerned? That seatng LONGER than that dimension (usually to facilitate loading in a semi-automatic from a magazine) won't increase pressure?

I could be totally wrong but I have been assuming that COL's in listed loads are the COL they used when they recorded the data. If that is true, the the pressure number they publish corresponds to that particular COL. This is why I am mystified with the COL of 1.190 listed with the AA#5 data.

Seating longer (for the same bullet) increases volume inside the case so I would think that would tend to lower pressure unless the combustion changes due to the added air.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Maybe with the case length that the company had, and that short OAL, listed

was the shortest OAL with maximum pressures, that they felt was safe, to load?


Using a longer OAL, is usually ok, if they will feed in your pistol.

There is always the shape of the bullet used, that can change things.
One reason I like a picture or mod # in manual/data, that I use.

 

[venomballistics]

I could be totally wrong but I have been assuming that COL's in listed loads are the COL they used when they recorded the data. If that is true, the the pressure number they publish corresponds to that particular COL. This is why I am mystified with the COL of 1.190 listed with the AA#5 data.

Seating longer (for the same bullet) increases volume inside the case so I would think that would tend to lower pressure unless the combustion changes due to the added air.

The problem here is that it's likely NOT the same bullet.
Think about a plausible extreme situation in 45-70 where specimen A is a wadcutter of 500 grains and specimen B is a 4R tangent ogive spire point.
There's no chance these will load the same or produce even remotely similar results over a given powder charge.

SWC design is wide open to design interpretation.
Could be a sub bore cone on a cylinder of ANY length. It could also be a sub bore RNFP on a cylinder as well.
How much of your bullet is in the shank and how much is in the nose determines COL.

 

[mckenney99]

I just checked my records and using any type of H&G #68 200gr LSWC I have always used an OAL of 1.245-1.250. They have fed and function 100% in all of my 1911's, Sig P220, M&P45's. I have loaded and fired at least 10,000 rds with this setup.

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

Lyman's has loads for 2 different 200 gr LSWCs. One shows an OAL of 1.161 for the 452460 (which is below SAAMI specs for min OAL for 45 ACP). The other shows an OAL of 1.235 for the 452630.

I'm guessing its just different bullet designs that gives a different OAL when crimped just short of the top of the leading band. I cast the 200 gr SWC from the Lee mold. Here's where I seat them. Looks similar to yours.

Here is the SAAMI Spec sheet for 45 ACP. As you can see the min OAL is 1.190, max is 1.275. That gives a lot of leeway in finding an OAL that cycles well in a 1911, or fits the cylinder, and functions with good accuracy in a revolver.