Load Recipe for Pushing a 125gn JHP at 1450 fps out of a 4" S&W 686

[STORMINORMAN]

Uhhh... No. Not exactly...

Outstanding feedback everyone. I figured H110 would get me close but thanks to RDub's amazingly detailed charts with the same model revolver as mine I have a decent starting point. I already have a couple/three pounds of H110 that I use with 158gn loads and in my 44 mags. Has anyone experimented with VihtaVuori N110 with 125gn bullets in a 4" revolver? Their website says it can push a 125gn bullet from 1683 to 1811 fps from a 7" 357 mag test barrel, but that seems ridiculously fast. The reason I'm interested in this powder is because it's supposed to be clean burning and have relatively low flash. Where did the 37.5 fps decrease per barrel inch come from STORMINORMAN? That's an extremely handy tool if reliable. Is that number specific to the caliber or the type of powder being used? Does it take into consideration pressure/velocity loss because of the cylinder gap? Thanks for educating me. I'm not concerned about pinpoint accuracy with this particular load and I don't intend to feed a steady diet of it to my revolver. I just want to have it in my arsenal. I won't be able to test this load for a while because none of the indoor ranges around me allow bullets with exposed lead so I have to wait for the opportunity to drive out to the dessert. I do have a chronograph though and will report back with my findings, but I'm hoping for some feedback on VV N110 before then. Thanks all.

I should have been more specific and said "...say, 37.5 FPS per inch".

The ACTUAL for that 357 Magnum Federal 125gr per BALLISTICS BY THE INCH is a reduction from 1943 to 1511 fps going from a 10" to a 4" barrel. That's 432 / 6 = 72 fps per inch. Ooooppps!

I was way under: but you hopefully get my drift. Plugging the extra 200 fps back into my example/calculation gets you closer to the 1450 figure (1,881 - 445 = 1,431). Sorry about any confusion.

I still believe you can get to where you want to go with H110, albeit not within the "3% warning". I'd bet somewhere between 18 and 19 gr. Since you have a chronograph please let us know?

P.S. I'll correct my original post. Thanks for making me rethink my (re)loading logic.

 

[Puritan]

I have to admit the last place I would have looked for 357 mag info was in the 10mm forum, but incredible detail and utility once again RDub. I'm surprised at the velocities you recorded for the Federal C357B. I remember that ammo clocking a lot closer to the advertised 1450 fps out of my 4" 686 when I went through a box several years ago. My ambient temps were much higher than 44F though. However, I'll caveat this with something my wife tells me on occasion, "You don't forget much Dear, but sometimes you remember things that never happened." Did you clock the Gold Dots by any chance? I see in the Speer manual (15th edition) the claim of 1443 fps using 17.8gn of VihtaVuori N110 from a vented 5.6" barrel with the same twist rate as my 686. I'd be curious what you saw if you recall. Every manual I see lists N110 as producing higher velocities than H110 for the 125gn 357 mag loads. boatbum101, I used to own a 6" GP100 and hated it. There was nothing wrong with it per se, but it never felt right in my hands (I hated the grips in particular). I ended up gifting it to a close friend in the service who loves it. If I ever do upgrade, it will be to a Model 27, but I probably won't unless the 686 wears out. On a related note, does anyone know if N110 meters well through a mechanical powder measure? It's described as a mini extruded powder so I'm curious. I've used 3N37, which is a shorter mini extruded powder, and it metered as well as ball powder through my RCBS measure. This is for future reference as I will be weighing each charge individually as I develop loads for the 125gn bullet. Thanks for the update and further explanation STORMINORMAN. Like I mentioned previously, this is a great tool to have and I appreciate the education.

 

[RDub]

once again RDub. I'm surprised at the velocities you recorded for the Federal C357B. Did you clock the Gold Dots by any chance? I'd be curious what you saw if you recall. Every manual I see lists N110 as producing higher velocities than H110 for the 125gn 357 mag loads. On a related note, does anyone know if N110 meters well through a mechanical powder measure? .

Glad you found the 10mm Forum useful..

Yes, I was surprised also with this.. It's on the list in the back of my head to re-test in a different ambient and location.

If you look at the top pic with the fourteen targets, on the bottom right you'll see a target for the Speer Gold Dots.
I did neglect to post a pic for the original pull-down for the Gold Dots.. Temp that day was 50°F. Both of these are the same lot#. Range 25 yards.



This load is fast enough for the purpose intended..

Over the years I have learned not to pay too much attention to 'advertised' or 'published' velocities.. Only on rare occasions do the velocities I get in the field match up with any of the above...

Here is what N110 looks like;



It meters well enough for an extruded powder. It is bulky and max loads are usually compressed. I believe you will find N110 more expensive than other popular powders, which begs the question, is it worth the extra cost for the performance it provides? On the target mentioned above you will also see a load using N110.

If you get a hold of some N110, I'd like to hear how you did with it.

 

[WR Moore]

A little late to the party, but having watched Federal factory 125 gr .357 batter our 681's severely (we did all practice/training with full power loads) I have to wonder why folks are so anxious to duplicate the load. In our case, the employer was footing the bill for all the repairs (we shot a lot) and they owned the guns.

Doing some testing with appropriate materials, dropping the velocity down to 1250 or so f/s greatly reduces the strain on the firearm and doesn't seem to significantly affect terminal results. It's also achievable with powders that don't act as illumination flares.

But, it's your money.

 

[Rule3]

Loading manual Speer #8 (Nuclear!) Gives data for a 125 gr Speer soft point in a 6" barrel. Many loads exceed 1400 with IMR 4227 2499, H110 HS6 even Unique. Some with mag primers. They also have data for that bullet in a 2" barrel that get around 1378fps. Not posting the powder charge as they are above current load data


Just a matter of how much powder you use and it's over todays standards.

 

[rosewood]

Try Hodgdon Longshot. I get 1430 out of a 3.9" bbl .357 sig with 124 grain bullet. The load data has the .357 mag over 1600 out of a 10" bbl. I imagine it will do well in a 4" 357 mag revolver. It may not hit 1450, but should get you at least in the 1300's and will be less flash and blast than H110 for sure. You can find the data on the Hodgdon webpage.

Wished I had a 4" bbl to try it in, you have my curiosity up. I just developed a load in a 2" 357 mag bbl using longshot and am hitting over 1100 with the 125grain and it wasn't max. The velocity increases dramatically more than conventional wisdom in short barrels from a 2" bbl to a 3" then 4" bbls. I have experienced a 100fps gain in 200 grain 45 acp using longshot from a 5" bbl to a 6" bbl. You will have to chronograph to verify.

Rosewood

 

[fredj338]

Try Hodgdon Longshot. I get 1430 out of a 3.9" bbl .357 sig with 124 grain bullet. The load data has the .357 mag over 1600 out of a 10" bbl. I imagine it will do well in a 4" 357 mag revolver. It may not hit 1450, but should get you at least in the 1300's and will be less flash and blast than H110 for sure. You can find the data on the Hodgdon webpage.

Wished I had a 4" bbl to try it in, you have my curiosity up. I just developed a load in a 2" 357 mag bbl using longshot and am hitting over 1100 with the 125grain and it wasn't max. The velocity increases dramatically more than conventional wisdom in short barrels from a 2" bbl to a 3" then 4" bbls. I have experienced a 100fps gain in 200 grain 45 acp using longshot from a 5" bbl to a 6" bbl. You will have to chronograph to verify.

Rosewood

I can reach 1150fps in my 2 1/2" M66 with a max charge of Unique. Longshot seems to work well in service calibers, smaller case volume, I wonder what it would do in larger 357mag cases. I haven't had any of my 4" mags out for awhile, I should do some LS testing & see.

 

[Puritan]

Here's the response I received after emailing VihtaVuori about achieving 1450 fps in a 4" revolver with 125 gn hollow points. Although somewhat disappointing, I appreciated them getting back to me with this info because their website says not to ask for load data that isn't already available on their website:

"Thank you for contacting us at Capstone PG. We did some preliminary testing with the 4" length barrel and found that regardless of using N110, N105, or N350 with any of the available 125gr JHP bullets that we available to us, those being the Sierra 125gr JHC - 125gr Hornady XTP/HP - and 125gr Speer GD/JHP, there simply is no way to safely attaining 1,450 fps from this barrel length and to stay within the SAAMI Industry Pressure Standard that we must abide by in the interest of shooter safety. About the best that can be expected, depending the individual 4" barrel, is around 1,360 fps average. The shorter barrel combined with the barrel/cylinder gap does take its toll on what even the .357 Magnum will actually give us in real world performance. Please do not hesitate to get back with any of us with the Capstone Tech. Team if we can be of future assistance."

Thanks RDub for the follow-up pix and info. The N110 grains are definitely longer than those of the other VV powder I used. I think I'm leaning towards 300-MP now based on this latest info from VV and your data from earlier. AA #9 was also recommended to me on another forum as being somewhat lower flash so I might give that a try. What ever I end up using I will be sure to post my results here - probably around July if all goes as planned.

 

[Puritan]

RDub,
I was reading a post from 2013 in which you advised a member to use a "heavy" crimp with 300 MP and a 125gn bullet in 357 mag:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/306215-brief-update-300-mp-357-a.html?306215=#post137104151

What exactly is a "heavy" crimp and how do I know when I've achieved that on a JHP with a cannelure? I just want to make sure I crimp enough to maximize retention time in the case with the slower powders before the bullet starts moving. In the past I settled on 3/8 of a turn of the crimping die (after touching the case mouth) for my 158gn target loads because that seemed to be enough to keep the bullet from moving under recoil, but I'm not sure if that constitutes a "heavy" roll crimp for maximizing the slower powders? I don't want to apply too much crimp that the case bulges, but how do I know when I've established a "heavy" roll crimp in a cannelured bullet? Should I see brass shavings? I wonder if there's a reliable and repeatable way to measure roll crimp to remove the guess work?

Also, do you still recommend using standard primers for 300 MP? Your data shows CCI 500 and the Alliant load data shows Fed 100. I ask because I'd prefer to save my standard primers for the pistol calibers I shoot and use CCI 550 mag primers in the 357. There always seems to be a shortage on reloading components these days. Did you test or do you think using magnum primers would negatively affect the performance of 300 MP in my 357? Of course I intend to reduce the charge initially and work up, but otherwise would you suspect the magnum primer to affect velocity or SD? Thanks in advance.

 

[RDub]

Hey Puritan
You're doing some research.. Good..
I got 1365 fps from 18.0grs N110, so according to them, that's just about right.

Heavy roll crimp;
Your die instructions where it deals with seating and crimping should explain it fairly well.
There really isn't anything that mysterious about it. It just means a substantial crimp. No bullet or case damage should be experienced.

There are two basic methods of crimping. First, the roll crimp, accomplished with your seating die. You are simply forcing the case mouth to fold into the cannalure by a 'lip' in the seating die close to the end of the press stroke. The more you adjust the seating die downward the more force you put on the case mouth. You want to put enough force into the cannalure to secure the bullet tightly, but no too much and damage the bullet. (or the case) There is a 'feel' that you get through experience. If you are seeing 'brass shavings' something is very wrong..

Second method is crimping with the LEE Factory Crimp die, a separate operation. This process crimps the case mouth into the cannalure laterally, from the sides so there is no downward pressure on the case.
This is the method I use mostly.

All we are really accomplishing with crimping is providing just a little resistance or holding back the bullet to ensure a good powder burn. This all happens in a nano second, but our chronographs can see the advantage of crimping revolver cartridges.

Primers and 300-MP. Alliant recommends the Fed 100. The CCI 500 and the Fed primer are very close. I have always achieved very acceptable SD with the CCI500. I've not felt the need to try a mag primer. It is counter intuitive that burning this much 300-MP doesn't require a mag primer, but it really doesn't. 300-MP is not H-110 or 296, it is something different.
You can always experiment with a few different primers.. That's kinda what this is all about.. If you are not getting the accuracy you're looking for, try a different bullet. It can make a difference.

As for AA#9, it is an outstanding powder. Every time I do any accuracy tests where AA#9 is included, it is at the top or is the top performer where accuracy is concerned. I get very good results using the WSP primer.

I hope this helps..

 

[Nevada Ed]

Heavy crimps.........

With my RCBS dies loading .357 magnum with a 125gr Hornady XTP bullet #3573 and a OAL of 1.59 with my cases...

my #3 die setting the depth of the bullet for a roll crimp has its center pin at.........

1.13" for a light crimp and
1.12" pin sticking out of the die for a heavy crimp.

OAL of the pin can be set by/on any part/surface of your die, that
you can get a good reading from.

This is how I set my crimps, with my dies.

Good loading.

 

[Puritan]

Heavy crimps.........

my #3 die setting the depth of the bullet for a roll crimp has its center pin at.........

1.13" for a light crimp and
1.12" pin sticking out of the die for a heavy crimp.

Good loading.

Thanks Nevada Ed,

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "center pin" of the seating die? Is this the protrudance of the seater stem above the top of the die body? If so, is your RCBS seater stem the older 1/4" variety or the newer 1/2" size? I own both types and my 1/4" stem stands much taller than my 1/2" stem.

The RCBS instructions don't define the difference between light and heavy crimp, they just say to keep adjusting by 1/8" until satisfied, which isn't very helpful. I like your method because it's repeatable, I just want to make sure I understand it better.

The instructions for the Lee FCD that RDub mentions say to turn the seating die 1/2 turn for a light crimp and 1 full turn for a heavy crimp, but 1 full turn on my RCBS roll crimp dies would bulge the case. Maybe that's because I'm turning the entire die body on my RCBS die versus just the crimp adjuster screw on the FCD (or the thread pitch is different). The instruction for the Lee also say the FCD won't buckle the case like other crimping dies, but I don't see how that's possible because the mechanism for crimping is the same as on my RCBS roll crimp die.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

There are LEE CARBIDE crimp dies, and there are...

...LEE FACTORY crimp dies.

The carbide (Handgun) series use another carbide ring (like in a sizing die) and an adjustable crimp on top: these can be roll-type for revolvers or a taper type for pistol (i.e., 9mm, 40 S&W, 380 ACP, 45 ACP, etc.). This pretty much insures these reloads will chamber if the OAL is appropriate for the bullet used.

They also offer collet-style crimp dies for rifle and SOME handgun calibers. I have these for 357 SIG, 44 & 45 calibers. These uniformly compress the rim and I have found to be excellent for plated bullets (range loads vs. FULL BORE HUNTING LOADS) in these calibers. For the heavy load you may want the heavy roll crimp.

They have one for 357 MAG as well: SKU# 90813. Got to check if I don't already have one of these!

CHEERS!

 

[Puritan]

I have the Lee collet style factory crimp dies for a bunch of my rifles and most of my non revolver pistol calibers and they work well. I just don't see a difference between the revolver FCDs and the standard roll crimp die that came with my RCBS set other than the sizing ring and having to turn the die body to set the amount of crimp on the RCBS vs. having to turn the adjustment screw to set the amount of crimp on the Lees. The carbide sizing ring is just icing on the cake for what I intend and probably/hopefully won't come into play (although I'm wondering if the carbide sizing ring will interfere with the bell I apply to the case mouth preventing it from entering the Lee body). I'm really only interested in applying a heavy crimp without buckling the case. Unless I'm missing something both the RCBS and Lee dies work by squeezing the top of the case into the cannelure (or side of the bullet) by gradually reducing the diameter inside the die body. It seems that this would lead to case buckling if too much pressure is applied although the Lee website says otherwise. Just not sure why.